Goodbye, democracy!!!

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by The Third Man

I can't speak to the nature of other countries' systems of government, but the US was never a democracy. It has always been a constitutional republic.

The democratic system here in the UK is very simliar to what you have in the states, not to mention our major parties reflect each other some what.

US Republican = UK Conservatives (Center Right)
US Democrats = UK Labour (Center Left)
Then we have a third party call the Liberal Democrats, who are more or less a flip flop dead center party supposedly..... not that it matters as they never win an out right majority
Mind you, the Conservatives and Labour have over the years have inreasingly strayed from there Left/Right wing roots resepctively.

Originally Posted by JU_88

The democratic system here in the UK is very simliar to what you have in the states, not to mention our major parties reflect each other some what.

US Republican = UK Conservatives (Center Right)
US Democrats = UK Labour (Center Left)
Then we have a third party call the Liberal Democrats, who are more or less a flip flop dead center party supposedly..... not that it matters as they never win an out right majority
Now we have a Conservative / Lib dem coalition government with conservative primeminster.
Its pretty much a conservative govenment tbh as they got most of the seats.

In many ways a parlimentary system seems more apt to gravitate towards Skybird's 'oligarchies and plutoracies'. Though direct elections are used to place House of Commons members, and their equivelants in other parlimentary systems, it is the members (oligarcs and plutocrats)who select the country's leadership. But I don't know that for sure, it just seems logical to me..

'oligarchies and plutoracies', are the very reason all 435 members of the US House of Representatives are up for re-election every two years.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by The Third Man

I can't speak to the nature of other countries' systems of government, but the US was never a democracy. It has always been a constitutional republic.

Don't trot out that old talking point. The U.S. was never a direct democracy, but the underlying foundations and institutions of government function on the principle of representative democracy and always have.

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Don't trot out that old talking point. The U.S. was never a direct democracy, but it is a representative democracy.

It is a very old talking point.

As the delegates left the building, a Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin, “Well, Doctor, what have we got?”

With no hesitation, Franklin replied, “A republic, if you can keep it.” Not a democracy, not a democratic republic. But “a republic, if you can keep it.” - 1787

representative democracy

Also known as a constitutional republic, if you believe in the constitution part. Republican means representative.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Mind you, the Conservatives and Labour have over the years have inreasingly strayed from there Left/Right wing roots resepctively.

Well the Reps and Dems of today are very different than 100-150 years ago. In fact they have basically swapped ideologies. Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt were Republicans. Until 1948 the south was Democratic.

[Skybird]

Okay, I hearby declare that the United States's historic national design as outlined by the conmstitution and amandements, is not democratic. At least it is not more democratic than for example the German Federal Republic.

Satisfied? Didn't I just say above that there are no democratic states left in the West?

Now tell me somebody - what is being gained by this kind of useless hairsplitting?

Of course the US by historic design was meant to be a democracy. A democratic republic. Ooops - sounds like German Democratic Republic. Representative, somebody, representing - by any chance the voting people, maybe? So we talk about a people's republic - like in People's Republic of China?

C'mon guys, let's waste your time on something more useful than this shadowboxing.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by The Third Man

Also known as a constitutional republic, if you believe in the constitution part. Republican means representative.

So if a republic is a form of representative democracy, then to say that the U.S. is a republic and not a democracy is intentionally misleading. They're not opposites. We democratically and directly elect out Senators under the 17th amendment. The national government is thus a republic and a democracy.

They're not mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

So if a republic is a form of representative democracy, then to say that the U.S. is a republic and not a democracy is intentionally misleading. They're not opposites. We democratically and directly elect out Senators under the 17th amendment. The national government is thus a republic and a democracy.

They're not mutually exclusive.

Beyond the issue of the 17th amendment being a travesty, the electoral college is our last vestage of a Constitutional Republic.

German Federal Republic

And the parlimentary system was known as the best way to weaken Germany politically after WWII. It is why Germany is so crazy politically to this day. Britain and France feel safer both then and now.

[GoldenRivet]

try as you might...

you will not outspend Obama and his Liberal/Socialist/Welfare state congress.

ok... I'll make it easy for TVM and Mookie...

compare the following numbers

$80,000,000 spent by these special interest groups on campaigning.
$1,000,000,000,000+ spent by this out of control congress.

which can my grandchildren live with?

Im going to have to go with $80M

[tater]

I have no problems with spending on elections. It's a choice, and it is freedom of political expression.

Jefferson and Adams had pet newspapers fighting for them, it's been going on forever.

I'd say no limits on political donations at all, frankly. Just document every penny and have to publish it on the web. Who gave what, and to whom. 100% transparent.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

try as you might...

you will not outspend Obama and his Liberal/Socialist/Welfare state congress.

ok... I'll make it easy for TVM and Mookie...

compare the following numbers

$80,000,000 spent by these special interest groups on campaigning.
$1,000,000,000,000+ spent by this out of control congress.

which can my grandchildren live with?

Im going to have to go with $80M

logical fallacy, much?

I love when the facts of Dem control is revealed it is called a falacy of logic, poor interpretation, unethical or unreliable polling, or some such thing.

I want to see these folks when mom and dad stop supporting them and they see when stealing from others isn't a good policy.

so sad.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by The Third Man

I love when the facts of Dem control is revealed it is called a falacy of logic, poor interpretation, unethical or unreliable polling, or some such thing.

I want to see these folks when mom and dad stop supporting them and they see when stealing from others isn't a good policy.

so sad.

You love to play the "poor me, everyone picks on me" card. But when you make insulting posts like that, it's no wonder you get the treatment that you get.

I don't care for your politics, and while I can say that about many people on this board, the majority of them argue their point in mature fashion without resorting to pettiness or personal attacks.

You do not, and I therefore have absolutely zero respect for you.

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

You love to play the "poor me, everyone picks on me" card. But when you make inon sequitur nsulting posts like that, it's no wonder you get the treatment that you get.

I don't care for your politics, and while I can say that about many people on this board, the majority of them argue their point in mature fashion without resorting to pettiness or personal attacks.

You do not, and I therefore have absolutely zero respect for you.

You love to play the "poor me, everyone picks on me" card. But when you make inon sequitur nsulting posts like that, it's no wonder you get the treatment that you get.

Show me the examples. You cannot make me disrespect your opinion so long as they are honest and deeply felt. I guess that is a difference between us. You don't like honest, deeply felt opinion and would like it curtailed.