Kriegsmarine vs IJN?

[tater]

The germans did not have a real navy. Period. 3d rate, if that. I'd put the KM below Italy, frankly.

No navy means zero ability to project power in the PTO. No organix air support—and KM CVs are fantasy, if you consider that, then you have to grant the IJN all their "mighta been" ships as well, any of which would WTF Pwn the KM).

Also, and this is CRITICAL—doctrine. Give the KM magical CVs in 1945, and what exactly do they do with them? What is their operational doctrine? How experienced are they in CV ops? Not at all. Heck, the IJN didn't even really absorb the lesson they taught the world—mass use of CV airpower. Singleton CVs are targets to be destroyed piecemeal.

Also, look at their planned aircraft, LOL. Navalized Ju-87s and Bf-109s. Water cooled. The first engagement, regardless of the outcome of the KM strikes would decimate their pilots since ANY damage to their liquid-cooled aircraft would result in a swim with sharks (air-cooled naval aircraft FTW).

How about escorts? LOL. How many did DDs did the KM have? 20? The USCG had more.

It's not even close. Maybe you can give Germany the UFO planes in Il-2 1946 to help them

BTW, the Germans never had 1000 subs at once. They serially built them to replace sunk subs—and the vast majority of the 1000+ built WERE sunk. The most they had at one time—in response to war losses—is likely higher than they would have had otherwise.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by tater

No navy means zero ability to project power in the PTO. No organix air support—and KM CVs are fantasy, if you consider that, then you have to grant the IJN all their "mighta been" ships as well, any of which would WTF Pwn the KM).

I'm not sure who this is targeted to, but I didn't consider KM CVs, or any part of the Z-plan for that matter. The surface fleet I'm imagining did not go further than Tirpitz, and you'll notice I didn't say anything further than they can all die.

BTW, the Germans never had 1000 subs at once. They serially built them to replace sunk subs—and the vast majority of the 1000+ built WERE sunk. The most they had at one time—in response to war losses—is likely higher than they would have had otherwise.

Well, blame the scenario writer, not me. He said that despite it apparently being peacetime until that moment of war, both sides get "everything that they ever built". So those 1000 subs (the latter half of which are somehow built with the benefit of war experience despite no war having taken place) are a consequence of the scenario as given.

Besides, as I understood it, in the real war if the subs weren't sunk, they still won't have slowed down much because they were trying to increase the number of subs to put the pressure onto Britain. What might have happened is that the Type XXI might not have been built, but that's another issue.

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

The STROG is only 50 or so miles long. The STROM is 500 miles long meaning sneaking past of not an option, the German boats would have to Snort or run on top. Also by 45 the Japanese had developed a basic MAD sensor IIRC meaning their aircraft are a major threat. Also the STROM is choked with small islands and very narrow meaning that nets and mines are a big hazard.

Even a modern MAD has a sorely limited range so quite frankly I won't be placing much hope into a primitive MAD sensor.

Besides, the narrowness of the Straits works both ways in that even if the Japanese plug up the whole strait well enough the Germans can't sneak or blast past, equally the Germans have the opportunity to block off the Strait with relatively few boats and cut off the easiest route to the Suez Canal (and thus Europe). Already in this defense one major trading avenue is cut - strategically Japan is hurt, Germany not beyond the cost of sending its boats.

As for the other straits, if they are less easily accessible to the Germans, equally they'll lead to longer passages to Europe (virtual attrition). Also, the scenario gives Singapore to the Japanese, but not elsewhere, so the Japanese would find it harder to plug up most of the other straits, and the game goes rapidly downhill as the German subs starts to seep (and then break) through the gaps.

Ultimately, the problem is that between the different force structures and the geopolitical situation of the two states, Germany has the conditions to be strategically offensive, while the Japanese can only be tactically offensive and strategically defensive.

[tater]

Yeah, I just reread the (weak) scenario.

Singapore of course is meaningless, the only bit of the SWPA that mattered was the NEI—OIL.

Minus oil, the KM would be just as FUBAR, frankly.

Anyway, assuming everything they built, then I suppose they get the 1000+ subs. Of course they have no possible way to replenish that many, so they are in effect spare parts. The IJN could actually supply every ship they built. Heck, they'd get the wartime merchants, too (hundreds of merchant hulls).

BTW, in addition to MAD on planes, from early on they had MAD and passive listening devices (along with controlled mines) sort of like SOSUS.

They also would have pretty good air support (excellent flying boats, etc).

Anyway, it's no contest, the 2 navies were not in the same league.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by tater

BTW, the Germans never had 1000 subs at once. They serially built them to replace sunk subs—and the vast majority of the 1000+ built WERE sunk. The most they had at one time—in response to war losses—is likely higher than they would have had otherwise.

Also their existing subs that were pulled for refit or what not when they returned from patrol. Anyone know the highest number of uboats operating at sea in any point in time?? Id make a guess, but i honestly don't know this figure.

Hell, even Hitler said, something like, "on land i'm a lion, at sea i'm a coward", or words to that effect.