Why Obama is so bad and why Europe loves him - Page 2

DarkFish · 09-19-10, 05:16 PM

Neither do I.
You mean that XabbaRus, Biggles (who is a Swede, for the gods' sake) and I are all ignorant about Swedish and Norwegian politics?

You can't be serious.

krashkart · 09-19-10, 06:20 PM

Remember that the words "socialism" and "socialist" are still scary words here. For some reason.

XabbaRus · 09-20-10, 02:41 AM

I guess that must be what is meant.

I didn't know that socialist immediately meant single party undemocratic state.

Puster Bill · 09-20-10, 12:45 PM

If you are a European and you can't understand why the United States is the way it is, remember that it's a country largely made up of people who are descendants of people who *LEFT* Europe, often for *VERY* good reasons.

And while the track record of Europe as a whole isn't too bad for the last, say 20 years or so, if you go back farther than that, it starts looking a lot less rosy than it does today. Go back to within living memory, and Europe starts looking like a place to avoid at all costs.

Happy Times · 09-20-10, 01:23 PM

One reason that public education and health care are widely aproved in Europe is because of the homogenius nation states we use to have.

I dont think you can take that same model to the US and the model is living its final days in Europe also.
There are studies about this, the more diverse the popultation gets there is less will for public funding of anything.

Because of the changing demographics with aging population and dissolving of the nation states, the public funding is coming to end in Europe also.

Im personally ready to continue Finnish public education and health care in principal.
I see them also an investment that saves or produces, but lot of the byrocracy have to be dissolved.

Other parts of the welfare state are something mostly we cant afford in the future.
The large byrocracy of pencil pushers dont produce anything, the large group of welfare leeches sucks the help from those that really need it etc..

After cutting these away i would make the focus of public funding to support and encourage working families to have more children, that would also be an investment to our future and money well spent.

XabbaRus · 09-20-10, 02:38 PM

Puster I understand completely what you mean.

What I don't understand is when someone makes the throwaway comment 'blissful ignorance' especially when it is someone who seems to have an axe to grind at anything remotely 'social' in its operation.

I was just asking bubblhead1980 to elaborate.

Ducimus · 09-20-10, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

blissful ignorance is more like it.

I hate saying it, but as a people , we are a fairly ignorant lot. You just don't realize it until you spend some time overseas and have to interact with people from a different country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krashkart

Remember that the words "socialism" and "socialist" are still scary words here. For some reason.

The word Socialism here, is synonymous with the word communism in meaning or intent. Communism, is still considered the literal definition of an evil state. The cold war still has some deep roots in American society. Communism, by virtue of said cold war roots, is considered the anti-thesis of what it is to be American. IE, "soviet red", "mother russia", "russian bear" the "soviet bloc", etc etc. So to say something is socialsm or socialist, is, in the American phsycic, the ultimate in political derogatory remarks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puster Bill

If you are a European and you can't understand why the United States is the way it is, remember that it's a country largely made up of people who are descendants of people who *LEFT* Europe, often for *VERY* good reasons.

Good point. I'd suffix that to say we are now also largely made up of people who have left Mexico.

DarkFish · 09-20-10, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puster Bill

If you are a European and you can't understand why the United States is the way it is, remember that it's a country largely made up of people who are descendants of people who *LEFT* Europe, often for *VERY* good reasons.

Very good reasons maybe, but only rarely socialism.

Quote:

And while the track record of Europe as a whole isn't too bad for the last, say 20 years or so, if you go back farther than that, it starts looking a lot less rosy than it does today. Go back to within living memory, and Europe starts looking like a place to avoid at all costs.

Euhm, wait a minute, you've been clearly reading some very strange history books. Everything I've heard from my parents/grandparents/uncles/aunts etc. tells a very different story.

Bubblehead1980 · 09-20-10, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I hate saying it, but as a people , we are a fairly ignorant lot. You just don't realize it until you spend some time overseas and have to interact with people from a different country

Duci, I have spent time overseas, interacted with plenty of people from Europe etc.I believe in the American way.Morris explained it well about how they know they can't compete so want us wrangled in.

Xabbarus....

My "blissful ignorance" comment was a statement on how that Europeans claim to be happier.I was saying many may live in a state of blissful ignorance, so believe they are happy but are unaware that they have no real economic liberty under the socialist style system.So they may have their universal healthcare etc but do not have some of the liberties Americans have.The thing that bothered me most is say the NHS in Britain, even if you do no use the NHS, you still have to pay.

America is about the individual or was intended to be and most people still feel that way.Again, as Dick Morris pointed out, socialism can never really compete with capitalism.America really is that last bastion of TRUE freedom in the world and we are losing it fast under our current leadership.Obama is seen in europe as "wrangling" our country in so he is popular there.Luckily Americans have awaken and we will stop him.

DarkFish · 09-20-10, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Morris explained it well about how they know they can't compete so want us wrangled in.

Well I'm really glad that mr. Morris knows so much about how European people think. A mind reader, is he?

Or rather not. I'm sorry to say it, but us Europeans "knowing we can't compete" is plain bull excrement.

Quote:

My "blissful ignorance" comment was a statement on how that Europeans claim to be happier.I was saying many may live in a state of blissful ignorance, so believe they are happy but are unaware that they have no real economic liberty under the socialist style system.

Ah, now I finally know! I've never really been happy, it's all just been an illusion!

Quote:

So they may have their universal healthcare etc but do not have some of the liberties Americans have.The thing that bothered me most is say the NHS in Britain, even if you do no use the NHS, you still have to pay.

America is about the individual or was intended to be and most people still feel that way.Again, as Dick Morris pointed out, socialism can never really compete with capitalism.America really is that last bastion of TRUE freedom in the world and we are losing it fast under our current leadership.Obama is seen in europe as "wrangling" our country in so he is popular there.Luckily Americans have awaken and we will stop him.

True freedom, I can agree with you on that. Unfortunately, that also includes the freedom to be selfish and let other, less fortunate people die from disease and hunger.

TLAM Strike · 09-20-10, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

The thing that bothered me most is say the NHS in Britain, even if you do no use the NHS, you still have to pay.

Same goes for our public school system, and the fire departments, and the police, and the libraries, and the parks, and the highways... etc... etc...

09-20-10, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Same goes for our public school system, and the fire departments, and the police, and the libraries, and the parks, and the highways... etc... etc...

Thats because you live in a socialist dictatorship.

Bubblehead1980 · 09-20-10, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Same goes for our public school system, and the fire departments, and the police, and the libraries, and the parks, and the highways... etc... etc...

Splitting hairs, healthcare is much, much different.

Bubblehead1980 · 09-20-10, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Well I'm really glad that mr. Morris knows so much about how European people think. A mind reader, is he?

Or rather not. I'm sorry to say it, but us Europeans "knowing we can't compete" is plain bull excrement.

Ah, now I finally know! I've never really been happy, it's all just been an illusion!

<facepalm>

True freedom, I can agree with you on that. Unfortunately, that also includes the freedom to be selfish and let other, less fortunate people die from disease and hunger.

No, not bull excrement.I agree with him because history backs him up.Capital did flee to UK under the Iron Lady and has since fled to the US as he said.Socialism has no real chance against Capitalism, history has shown it thus far.

No, you may be happy but I was saying that many in Europe are not aware of the limited freedom they have due to the system there but as long as they are on the dole, they feel happy, thus the state of blissful ignorance.

True freedom is what is need.Well we should have limited programs for those left behind but prob is most people who are poor are that way because of their own making.Sure if you are born poor you cant help that.However, if you go to school, work hard you can make your way, plenty have done it in America.The problem is the welfare state kills motivation.People get lazy and adopt defeatism as an attitude.Then they go and have children they are not equipped to support in any way and thus end up living off govt aka tax money.Why should a productive member of society such as myself pay for trash like that?

Now, as said before and as I have always believed, we should have a light safety net to help people get back on their feet when in hard times but no nanny state, cradle to grave system as some want in the US.This would spell our downfall for sure.

Bubblehead1980 · 09-20-10, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Thats because you live in a socialist dictatorship.

I know you are attempting to be sarcastic.However, the US is on the road at the moment.The US like in anything is different though, it'll be gradual not immediate, Americans would never stand for sudden change.Luckily, most of us are wise to what is going on now so after November and 2012, we will put a stop to it.

09-19-10, 05:16 PM	#16
DarkFish Sea Lord Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Stinking drunk in Eindhoven, the Netherlands Posts: 1,844 Downloads: 28 Uploads: 0	Neither do I. You mean that XabbaRus, Biggles (who is a Swede, for the gods' sake) and I are all ignorant about Swedish and Norwegian politics? You can't be serious. __________________

09-20-10, 02:41 AM	#18
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I guess that must be what is meant. I didn't know that socialist immediately meant single party undemocratic state. __________________

09-20-10, 12:45 PM	#19
Puster Bill Grey Wolf Join Date: May 2006 Location: BA8758, or FN33eh for my fellow hams. Posts: 833 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If you are a European and you can't understand why the United States is the way it is, remember that it's a country largely made up of people who are descendants of people who LEFT Europe, often for VERY good reasons. And while the track record of Europe as a whole isn't too bad for the last, say 20 years or so, if you go back farther than that, it starts looking a lot less rosy than it does today. Go back to within living memory, and Europe starts looking like a place to avoid at all costs. __________________ The U-Boat Commander of Love

09-20-10, 02:38 PM	#21
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Puster I understand completely what you mean. What I don't understand is when someone makes the throwaway comment 'blissful ignorance' especially when it is someone who seems to have an axe to grind at anything remotely 'social' in its operation. I was just asking bubblhead1980 to elaborate. __________________

09-19-10, 06:20 PM	#17
krashkart Navy Seal Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,292 Downloads: 100 Uploads: 0	Remember that the words "socialism" and "socialist" are still scary words here. For some reason.

09-20-10, 01:23 PM	#20
Happy Times Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 2,950 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	One reason that public education and health care are widely aproved in Europe is because of the homogenius nation states we use to have. I dont think you can take that same model to the US and the model is living its final days in Europe also. There are studies about this, the more diverse the popultation gets there is less will for public funding of anything. Because of the changing demographics with aging population and dissolving of the nation states, the public funding is coming to end in Europe also. Im personally ready to continue Finnish public education and health care in principal. I see them also an investment that saves or produces, but lot of the byrocracy have to be dissolved. Other parts of the welfare state are something mostly we cant afford in the future. The large byrocracy of pencil pushers dont produce anything, the large group of welfare leeches sucks the help from those that really need it etc.. After cutting these away i would make the focus of public funding to support and encourage working families to have more children, that would also be an investment to our future and money well spent.