Your fav method of shooting. - Page 2

NorthBeach · 09-10-10, 12:39 AM

RR provided THREE charts. One for O'Kane, one for Cromwell, and one (Vector Analysis Attack Rules) that provides the formula for finding the precise lead angle for a ship going ANY speed. You can also figure out those angles using one of Solution Solver's tools.

I can easily combine O'Kane/VA or Cromwell/VA. O'Kane/Cromwell? Not so much. I set Cromwell/VA up at 45deg (ish). The only time I enter O'Kane into a Cromwell/VA attack mix is if I feel confident (or am delusional) about using it in an aft attack, swinging the boat into a 90deg, for a last shot in the salvo. The success rate for that is reeeeeeeeealy low as I've made a lot of noise and roiled up a lot of water letting loose the 6 bow shots. The only time I consult with the map is IF I consider trying an aft O'Kane attack, to locate the target. And, I only do that after I've sent my 45deg course change to the helm.

I guess I use a bastardization of the Cromwell. Because if I have a confirmed target speed of say 14kts. I'll use 17deg as my lead angle, just as I would for a VA attack. And, set the aob for 28deg.

Note: The actual lead angle for a 14kt target with a 45deg aob using a Mk14 set at 46kts is 15.5deg. I always round up as well as adding a degree of lead to compensate for being old and slow, as well as a slight delay from giving launch command and the actual launch.

Armistead · 09-10-10, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthBeach

RR provided THREE charts. One for O'Kane, one for Cromwell, and one (Vector Analysis Attack Rules) that provides the formula for finding the precise lead angle for a ship going ANY speed. You can also figure out those angles using one of Solution Solver's tools.

I can easily combine O'Kane/VA or Cromwell/VA. O'Kane/Cromwell? Not so much. I set Cromwell/VA up at 45deg (ish). The only time I enter O'Kane into a Cromwell/VA attack mix is if I feel confident (or am delusional) about using it in an aft attack, swinging the boat into a 90deg, for a last shot in the salvo. The success rate for that is reeeeeeeeealy low as I've made a lot of noise and roiled up a lot of water letting loose the 6 bow shots. The only time I consult with the map is IF I consider trying an aft O'Kane attack, to locate the target. And, I only do that after I've sent my 45deg course change to the helm.

I guess I use a bastardization of the Cromwell. Because if I have a confirmed target speed of say 14kts. I'll use 17deg as my lead angle, just as I would for a VA attack. And, set the aob for 28deg.

That makes a lil more sense, workable, but probably not my preferred maddness, although close enough.

razark · 09-10-10, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USNSRCaseySmith

Slight question? could some one please explain each of the tactics to me?? as I have yet to get the game and would like to know the different firing approaches and tactics on TF and lone ships.

Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread contains a lot of info.

Quick Reference to some of the techniques.

09-10-10, 12:59 PM

Aye thank you. even with the graphics however i still dont understand the attacks. at least Vector analysis i do: You do calculations, fire a torpedo straight to meet said boat at point

but the other two. Im guessing those are shots by using the gyro or something?? im not sure,

(Wishes he would have paid more attention in geometry and trig now

)

razark · 09-10-10, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USNSRCaseySmith

Aye thank you. even with the graphics however i still dont understand the attacks. at least Vector analysis i do: You do calculations, fire a torpedo straight to meet said boat at point

but the other two. Im guessing those are shots by using the gyro or something?? im not sure,

(Wishes he would have paid more attention in geometry and trig now

)

The goal is to shoot the fish with a 0 gyro angle. General idea behind both Cromwell and Dick O'Kane is to figure out what bearing the ship will be on when the gyro angle is 0. You only need to know speed and AoB to figure this, as the range factors out of the calculation. You set the TDC to the bearing, speed, and AoB, and it calculates the gyro angle. Point the scope at that bearing, wait and watch the target through the scope. As it passes the wire, you shoot and the torpedo hits the part the scope was aimed at.

Rockin Robbins · 09-10-10, 01:50 PM

First, keep in mind that Cromwell and Dick O'Kane will not generally give you a perfect zero gyro. That doesn't matter because the US Navy considered any shot under a 20º gyro angle to be "straight fire" and range mattered very very little. A couple of degrees, even 10 degrees of gyro angle is meaningless and we worry ourselves without possible gain about obtaining that exact zero gyro.

Now on changing from one method to another. You have very little choice but to change in order from a technique further in front of the convoy to one back further. Let's say you're doing a Cromwell attack from 45º ahead. A DD jumps you from nowhere or the target switches course and you have to bail out.

Well the convoy is not to you yet! You have plenty of time to set up for a Dick O'Kane or split the difference between a 45º and 90º attack with a vector analysis approach. This could give you three different chances to shoot before the convoy passes you.

If you blow the Dick O'Kane attack you have a very little time to set up a vector analysis from slightly behind the target's beam, but keep in mind that their speed now actually slows down the approach speed of the torpedo to the target. It will be easier to avoid your shot, but if it's all you have, fire away. A shot not taken never hits.

So no, you can't bail out of a Dick O'Kane and quickly set up for a John P Cromwell attack because that implies pulling out beyond visual range and taking a fast surface charge ahead of the convoy to achieve a position 45º ahead. Depending on the speed of the convoy that could take hours.

Another situation where I'll bail out of the constant bearing attacks altogether is where I've shot and the convoy scatters. Chaos has broken out. They've accelerated to 12 knots or so, none of them is on a course 90 or 45º from yours and you've got to decide what to do. It's time to use the conventional stadimeter/position keeper attack for non-standard angles because you don't have time to position yourself for any of the constant bearing tactics. You have to shoot very soon or lose the opportunity.

Constant bearing attacks are for a target unaware of your existence. You set up the TDC up to half an hour before the attack. Then you exert all your energy into positioning your submarine at the correct angle to the target track and at a close enough range to guarantee hits. Because you know everything about the target and have the TDC already set up you do this maneuvering with periscope down with no possibility of detection. Before your scope ever breaks the surface you're ready to shoot when the target crosses the wire! Sonar bearing means you raise the scope seconds before you fire. Might as well start baking that victory cake. He's on the bottom already and he just doesn't know it yet.

Dignan · 10-10-10, 10:25 AM

Been reading this thread today and find it very helpful as I am in the process of teaching myself these new techniques. Rockin Robbins, I've viewed your Okane tutorial many times. Very well done and I think I've got the hang of it. I have several questions though.

1. Is there a "recommended range" to be at with the Dick Okane method?

I first employed it last night on my current patrol. I encountered a large TF and set up for an Okane attack but had to limit my distance from target track to about 2100 yards. Not ideal. I launched three torps at a cruiser and all missed. I THINK they missed because it was about noon, the water was like glass and I think they spotted the torpedoes in the water and sped up. Was I too far away for the okane method to work? In retrospect, I probably should have used the stadimeter and position keeper as this convoy had a lot of escorts and waiting for a 90 degree angle shot put me at undue risk of "getting dead" as I had to quickly exit the area.

2. Is the lead angle you choose on the okane attack completely arbitrary as long as the AOB angle you enter into the TDC matches that angle?

For example if I have a target coming at me from left to right and choose to lock my scope at 350 degrees (10 less than 0 degrees) then I just have to ensure the AOB is set to 80 degrees (ship pointing left to right. 90 - 10 = 80), correct? Assuming the speed is correct and I've set range/bearing as you instructed in the video this should work right?

I'm getting back into SH4 after about a year with it on the shelf and am really enjoying it again especially when learning these new tactics. Thanks for your great tutorials.

NorthBeach · 10-10-10, 01:15 PM

Dignan- You had lousy shooting conditions to shoot from that far away. In my experience, if you loose one a few degs forward you might get him to keep from hitting the gas. But, he'll likely change course on you. So, you'll want to group the rest of the salvo rather tightly because of his narrowing aspect. That would be true for any method you're setting up.

#2- Correct. Although, I prefer not to have my fish chase a target. If you set up for an earlier shot (greater AOB), you have the opportunity to adjust and try again. Or, select another target that isn't steaming away from you at 5/5.

09-10-10, 12:39 AM	#16
NorthBeach Torpedoman Join Date: May 2008 Location: San Francisco Posts: 112 Downloads: 216 Uploads: 0	RR provided THREE charts. One for O'Kane, one for Cromwell, and one (Vector Analysis Attack Rules) that provides the formula for finding the precise lead angle for a ship going ANY speed. You can also figure out those angles using one of Solution Solver's tools. I can easily combine O'Kane/VA or Cromwell/VA. O'Kane/Cromwell? Not so much. I set Cromwell/VA up at 45deg (ish). The only time I enter O'Kane into a Cromwell/VA attack mix is if I feel confident (or am delusional) about using it in an aft attack, swinging the boat into a 90deg, for a last shot in the salvo. The success rate for that is reeeeeeeeealy low as I've made a lot of noise and roiled up a lot of water letting loose the 6 bow shots. The only time I consult with the map is IF I consider trying an aft O'Kane attack, to locate the target. And, I only do that after I've sent my 45deg course change to the helm. I guess I use a bastardization of the Cromwell. Because if I have a confirmed target speed of say 14kts. I'll use 17deg as my lead angle, just as I would for a VA attack. And, set the aob for 28deg. Note: The actual lead angle for a 14kt target with a 45deg aob using a Mk14 set at 46kts is 15.5deg. I always round up as well as adding a degree of lead to compensate for being old and slow, as well as a slight delay from giving launch command and the actual launch. Last edited by NorthBeach; 09-10-10 at 01:55 AM.

09-10-10, 01:50 PM	#21
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	First, keep in mind that Cromwell and Dick O'Kane will not generally give you a perfect zero gyro. That doesn't matter because the US Navy considered any shot under a 20º gyro angle to be "straight fire" and range mattered very very little. A couple of degrees, even 10 degrees of gyro angle is meaningless and we worry ourselves without possible gain about obtaining that exact zero gyro. Now on changing from one method to another. You have very little choice but to change in order from a technique further in front of the convoy to one back further. Let's say you're doing a Cromwell attack from 45º ahead. A DD jumps you from nowhere or the target switches course and you have to bail out. Well the convoy is not to you yet! You have plenty of time to set up for a Dick O'Kane or split the difference between a 45º and 90º attack with a vector analysis approach. This could give you three different chances to shoot before the convoy passes you. If you blow the Dick O'Kane attack you have a very little time to set up a vector analysis from slightly behind the target's beam, but keep in mind that their speed now actually slows down the approach speed of the torpedo to the target. It will be easier to avoid your shot, but if it's all you have, fire away. A shot not taken never hits. So no, you can't bail out of a Dick O'Kane and quickly set up for a John P Cromwell attack because that implies pulling out beyond visual range and taking a fast surface charge ahead of the convoy to achieve a position 45º ahead. Depending on the speed of the convoy that could take hours. Another situation where I'll bail out of the constant bearing attacks altogether is where I've shot and the convoy scatters. Chaos has broken out. They've accelerated to 12 knots or so, none of them is on a course 90 or 45º from yours and you've got to decide what to do. It's time to use the conventional stadimeter/position keeper attack for non-standard angles because you don't have time to position yourself for any of the constant bearing tactics. You have to shoot very soon or lose the opportunity. Constant bearing attacks are for a target unaware of your existence. You set up the TDC up to half an hour before the attack. Then you exert all your energy into positioning your submarine at the correct angle to the target track and at a close enough range to guarantee hits. Because you know everything about the target and have the TDC already set up you do this maneuvering with periscope down with no possibility of detection. Before your scope ever breaks the surface you're ready to shoot when the target crosses the wire! Sonar bearing means you raise the scope seconds before you fire. Might as well start baking that victory cake. He's on the bottom already and he just doesn't know it yet. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

09-10-10, 12:59 PM	#19
reignofdeath Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Aye thank you. even with the graphics however i still dont understand the attacks. at least Vector analysis i do: You do calculations, fire a torpedo straight to meet said boat at point but the other two. Im guessing those are shots by using the gyro or something?? im not sure, (Wishes he would have paid more attention in geometry and trig now )

10-10-10, 10:25 AM	#22
Dignan Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 698 Downloads: 262 Uploads: 0	Been reading this thread today and find it very helpful as I am in the process of teaching myself these new techniques. Rockin Robbins, I've viewed your Okane tutorial many times. Very well done and I think I've got the hang of it. I have several questions though. 1. Is there a "recommended range" to be at with the Dick Okane method? I first employed it last night on my current patrol. I encountered a large TF and set up for an Okane attack but had to limit my distance from target track to about 2100 yards. Not ideal. I launched three torps at a cruiser and all missed. I THINK they missed because it was about noon, the water was like glass and I think they spotted the torpedoes in the water and sped up. Was I too far away for the okane method to work? In retrospect, I probably should have used the stadimeter and position keeper as this convoy had a lot of escorts and waiting for a 90 degree angle shot put me at undue risk of "getting dead" as I had to quickly exit the area. 2. Is the lead angle you choose on the okane attack completely arbitrary as long as the AOB angle you enter into the TDC matches that angle? For example if I have a target coming at me from left to right and choose to lock my scope at 350 degrees (10 less than 0 degrees) then I just have to ensure the AOB is set to 80 degrees (ship pointing left to right. 90 - 10 = 80), correct? Assuming the speed is correct and I've set range/bearing as you instructed in the video this should work right? I'm getting back into SH4 after about a year with it on the shelf and am really enjoying it again especially when learning these new tactics. Thanks for your great tutorials.

10-10-10, 01:15 PM	#23
NorthBeach Torpedoman Join Date: May 2008 Location: San Francisco Posts: 112 Downloads: 216 Uploads: 0	Dignan- You had lousy shooting conditions to shoot from that far away. In my experience, if you loose one a few degs forward you might get him to keep from hitting the gas. But, he'll likely change course on you. So, you'll want to group the rest of the salvo rather tightly because of his narrowing aspect. That would be true for any method you're setting up. #2- Correct. Although, I prefer not to have my fish chase a target. If you set up for an earlier shot (greater AOB), you have the opportunity to adjust and try again. Or, select another target that isn't steaming away from you at 5/5.