Obama to Call for Major Road, Rail and Runway Spending

[AVGWarhawk]

Here is the thing...approving and passing the bill in a rushed manner is one thing. Getting the wheels in motion are all together different. When getting the government to move it is best to hurry up and wait.

Let me intruduce you to a nice example. Here we have BRAC:

http://www.brac.gov/

BRAC was introduced in 2005. Currently the bids to move these bases and close others are still in the works!! This is 2010! Red tape at it's finest. If I remember correctly there was a news article showing a very small percentage of the original stimulus package as being spent. It is very slow this process.

[tater]

I'm pretty staunchly against bills that cannot be read and understood by those voting on it. If that means breaking the bills down into smaller pieces, so be it.

The stimulus was a pork bill. And I'd wager that none of those who voted for it read more than a couple pages that pertained to their own pork. They have a staff, I understand, but guess what, I bet no one on each critter's staff read the entire bill and understood it, either. Ditto healthcare bill, etc, ad nauseum.

Rushing bills that don't take effect immediately is nothing more than politics. It's trying to slip something over on us---regardless of which side does it. A emergency bill that takes effect in the next few weeks? I'm fine with that, but such a bill should be short enough to read. Proper readin is important, since legally, semantics matters. One wrong wording can bite everyone in the butt.

If a politician says that something needs to be done quickly, that's a powerful argument to vote against it, whatever it is.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

For production jobs to come back to the states another thing needs to change besides taxes, that is the wage expecations of people, as it stands it is cheaper to produce crap elsewhere due to workforce costs. That is not likely to change though unless the wage expecations grow to be on par with those in the states.

Wage expectations aren't going to change given how expensive it is to live here. (in California at any rate). You simply are not going to survive on a 7 dollars an hour when something as basic as a roof over your head costs at least 1100 dollars a month.

Originally Posted by The Third Man

I suspect you are wrong.

Market Crash (Oct 1929) Depression begins

FDR Elected (Nov 1932) Depression continues

"First New Deal" (1933) Depression continues

"Second New Deal" (1935) Depression continues

Unemployment rate 19.0% (1938) Depression continues

Unemployment rate 4.7% (1942) World at War

It's always been my thought that WW2 is what really got us out of the depression. The mobilization and industrialization of America during WW2, is what set our lifestyles as a people from then until these last 10- 20 years. I think the results of WW2 are THAT far reaching. With production jobs going away, so is most of the middle class. Now were on this downward spiral that is probably not going to stop any time soon.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by tater

I'm pretty staunchly against bills that cannot be read and understood by those voting on it. If that means breaking the bills down into smaller pieces, so be it.

The stimulus was a pork bill. And I'd wager that none of those who voted for it read more than a couple pages that pertained to their own pork. They have a staff, I understand, but guess what, I bet no one on each critter's staff read the entire bill and understood it, either. Ditto healthcare bill, etc, ad nauseum.

Rushing bills that don't take effect immediately is nothing more than politics. It's trying to slip something over on us---regardless of which side does it. A emergency bill that takes effect in the next few weeks? I'm fine with that, but such a bill should be short enough to read. Proper readin is important, since legally, semantics matters. One wrong wording can bite everyone in the butt.

If a politician says that something needs to be done quickly, that's a powerful argument to vote against it, whatever it is.

It's a complete political thing. Say you have a funding bill to build opera houses or symphonies. You are opposed to increasing spending on the arts. You vote against it. Oops! Someone slipped a VA funding amendment in the bill. Now during the next election cycle, your opponent runs ads saying that you hate veterans and they find Ol' Sarge who lost a foot in the war and show him in a TV spot with a tear in his eye. How do you come back from that one?

I would be in favor of simplifying bills keeping them focused on one issue. These 2000 page behemoths are politics at its worst.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by tater

I'm pretty staunchly against bills that cannot be read and understood by those voting on it. If that means breaking the bills down into smaller pieces, so be it.

The stimulus was a pork bill. And I'd wager that none of those who voted for it read more than a couple pages that pertained to their own pork. They have a staff, I understand, but guess what, I bet no one on each critter's staff read the entire bill and understood it, either. Ditto healthcare bill, etc, ad nauseum.

Rushing bills that don't take effect immediately is nothing more than politics. It's trying to slip something over on us---regardless of which side does it. A emergency bill that takes effect in the next few weeks? I'm fine with that, but such a bill should be short enough to read. Proper readin is important, since legally, semantics matters. One wrong wording can bite everyone in the butt.

If a politician says that something needs to be done quickly, that's a powerful argument to vote against it, whatever it is.

Agreed 100%. We now see in what shambles the government really is in. Truth be told, the government, meaning the folks elected to be in the Capital, are only in it for themselves. It is self-serving. They get the fat checks, vacations and all the other benefits that they simply vote in for themselves. If we discuss term limits and why this was never voted in and instituted then you have the perfect proof of how self-serving the government (your elected officials) really are. I don't believe you will find another entity other than perhaps Wall Street that is self-serving and know it. Both agree that greed is good.

So, we play the stimulus game once again. How nice when the voting in the states has commenced. Obama courting some union over the weekend. It is all a game. They get in. Get a bank full of dead presidents. They retire. For most I believe it is the art of politics that truly drives these people. Not the desire to make it right for the country. This is why I'm a firm believer in term limits. It will never happen. Would you vote yourself out of a job?

Originally Posted by Ducimus

With production jobs going away, so is most of the middle class. Now were on this downward spiral that is probably not going to stop any time soon.

And why do you think production jobs are going away? Is it government intervention, or private initiative?

[August]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

With production jobs going away, so is most of the middle class.

I wonder at what point a production worker began to be considered "middle class". It wasn't always like that.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by The Third Man

And why do you think production jobs are going away? Is it government intervention, or private initiative?

Private initiative. If I can pay an Indian or Chinese assembly line worker 10 cents a day to manufacture something, my profit motivation says that's what I'm going to do. Don't be so dogmatic.

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Private initiative. If I can pay an Indian or Chinese assembly line worker 10 cents a day to manufacture something, my profit motivation says that's what I'm going to do. Don't be so dogmatic.

And if the EPA and their other gov't regulation, including NAFTA, didn't force US manufacturing off seas, what then?

Looking at the world since 1994 isn't realistic. Look at history or die because of it.

In 1994 people of all stripes were earning a good and fair wage.

[tater]

Or even if your cost of sales for something made in the US is $20, and you can have it at Long Beach for $17.50—still a net win to make it elsewhere. Add in possible labor problems you can completely forget about, and that makes it very attractive.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by tater

Mookie, I have to say, of all the people who are usually on the opposite side, you're one of the few capable of changing my mind sometimes. I think I've posted to that effect before, but <S> anyway.

Isn't he great? I like getting his perspective, too.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with him on his assessment of the New Deal and his apparent taste for the new stimulus.

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Economic stimulus is not meant to alleviate budget deficits. It's meant to jump start an economy.

It's meant to, and sometimes it does, for a little while. I'd hope it would, given the vast sums of money spent. However, the idea of jump-starting an economy through cash infusions and government-directed spending fell out of the economic boat decades go, along with Keynesianism. It's still practiced, much to the chagrin of modern mainstream economists who advocate free trade.

The problem is that you can't just frak around with an economic system by arbitrarily dumping vast amounts of created or appropriated currency into certain sectors of it without negative consequences. Currency injections are like a drug for the economy. They seem to make the problem go away for a time, but unless the money keeps coming the market will eventually undergo a natural correction. The severity of it depends upon how much was spent without generating a significant ROI, and with government spending, that percentage tends to be high. Governments are inefficient and easily manipulated sources of power that are just asking for abuse by self-interested parties at every level. They work just like monopolies, except that the results are much more harmful and permanent.

Even worse, the time and money spent "under the influence" creates diminishing returns. Like a drug-addict's body, the market will alter its homeostasis to the point where more stimulus is required to achieve the desired effect. Sooner or later, the market will reconcile the disparity between the supply of goods and services and the supply of currency. We've learned this from those damned economic bubbles time and time again, why would a government-generated economic bubble be any different?

What we need now is an influx of new (viable, not fiat) economic activity to shore up our currency. We could easily do this by drastically cutting taxes, especially business taxes, redacting BS regulations and licensure fees, and otherwise making it easy for people to generate economic activity by producing and spending. This is doubly true now when Non-US are weak (read, ripe for the taking). Think of the industries we could absorb by effectively lowering our labor prices We could turn the US into a gigantic, more advanced version of Hong Kong, which rocks. The Mints and the Fed would have a field day just trying to stave off both long and short-term deflation.

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Isn't he great? I like getting his perspective, too.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with him on his assessment of the New Deal and his apparent taste for the new stimulus.

It's meant to, and sometimes it does, for a little while. I'd hope it would, given the vast sums of money spent. However, the idea of jump-starting an economy through cash infusions and government-directed spending fell out of the economic boat decades go, along with Keynesianism. It's still practiced, much to the chagrin of modern mainstream economists who advocate free trade.

The problem is that you can't just frak around with an economic system by arbitrarily dumping vast amounts of created or appropriated currency into certain sectors of it without negative consequences. Currency injections are like a drug for the economy. They seem to make the problem go away for a time, but unless the money keeps coming the market will eventually undergo a natural correction. The severity of it depends upon how much was spent without generating a significant ROI, and with government spending, that percentage tends to be high. Governments are inefficient and easily manipulated sources of power that are just asking for abuse by self-interested parties at every level. They work just like monopolies, except that the results are much more harmful and permanent.

Even worse, the time and money spent "under the influence" creates diminishing returns. Like a drug-addict's body, the market will alter its homeostasis to the point where more stimulus is required to achieve the desired effect. Sooner or later, the market will reconcile the disparity between the supply of goods and services and the supply of currency. We've learned this from those damned economic bubbles time and time again, why would a government-generated economic bubble be any different?

What we need now is an influx of new (viable, not fiat) economic activity to shore up our currency. We could easily do this by drastically cutting taxes, especially business taxes, redacting BS regulations and licensure fees, and otherwise making it easy for people to generate economic activity by producing and spending. This is doubly true now when Non-US are weak (read, ripe for the taking). Think of the industries we could absorb by effectively lowering our labor prices We could turn the US into a gigantic, more advanced version of Hong Kong, which rocks. The Mints and the Fed would have a field day just trying to stave off both long and short-term deflation.

What we need is gov't policy which makes it posible to manufacture all sorts of things . Forget about the acid rain of the Euro's complaints, the wory over depletion of resources, which are replenished by the businesses which want to stay in business.

It is time to be selfish in every sense of the word.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by The Third Man

the wory over depletion of resources, which are replenished by the businesses which want to stay in business.

Yeah, right. Just like all those responsible businesses who didn't let the Cuyahoga River catch fire. Or all of the farmers who were responsible enough to not let the Dust Bowl happen. Or Killer bees. Or the Pacific Garbage patch. Or the Citarum River. Or all the other wonderful and responsible environmental decisions that big business has made throughout the years.

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Yeah, right. Just like all those responsible businesses who didn't let the Cuyahoga River catch fire. Or all of the farmers who were responsible enough to not let the Dust Bowl happen. Or Killer bees. Or the Pacific Garbage patch. Or the Citarum River. Or all the other wonderful and responsible environmental decisions that big business has made throughout the years.

Well there you go. $789 Billions spent to make us happy, allows you to spend another $50 billions, without thinking about the consequences of such spending.

Not very bright are you?

Not your fault...stupid is,,,

[August]

We'll never win back our manufacturing as long as our foreign competitors don't have to abide by the same environmental standards we require of our domestic factories.

I say tax the heck out of any imports from countries who don't toe the same line.