America on its way down. Is it?

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Well it's not really a question of simple wage increases. As Aramike points out, if you just raise wages, you'll end up spurring inflation (which actually might not be a bad thing with the risks to deflation that we're facing.) You need to bolster confidence - and the only thing that's going to do that is people feeling relatively confident that their job will be there tomorrow and their house is going to have a steady value. If people are fearful for what happens tomorrow, their wallets will remain shut.

Very true, even though I think that any worries we have of deflation (especially due to housing) are more than compensated for with the additional money printing being done in the name of stimulus.

Otherwise, great point.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

start paying people more and we will spend more. Were supposed to drive the economy but we have no money to do it with!

Economic considerations aside, I was asking how you intend to make employers pay more?

[gimpy117]

well yes getting employers to pay better is tough. But honestly, what makes a consumer more confident than having more money? Consumers are now starting to realize that they really are "just scraping by" and that makes them less apt to spend, borrow, or otherwise drive the economy via their pocketbooks.

[Bilge_Rat]

outsiders have been announcing the downfall of the USA for years.

I live in canada, but have travelled extensively through Europe and the USA since the 70s.

Its fashionable up here to criticize the US, but whenever I travel to america, I am struck by the can-do attitude of Americans.

I was in Las Vegas a few months back. It has been especially hard hit by the recession, hotels are empty and slashing room prices, construction projects were abondoned mid-stream, every taxi driver seemed to be a layed-off engineer, yet everyone radiated a positive, self-reliant, optimistic attitude.

There is an energy to the USA and Americans that you dont see anywhere else. It is one of the most politically stable country on earth.

I dont see it going down any time soon.

[August]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

There is an energy to the USA and Americans that you dont see anywhere else.

This is what I was trying to explain to Skybird.

Before you can do anything you must first believe that you can. A person may not succeed at everything he attempts but failure is a self fulfilling prophesy.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

This is what I was trying to explain to Skybird.

Before you can do anything you must first believe that you can. A person may not succeed at everything he attempts but failure is a self fulfilling prophesy.

I do not deny this. I just insist on pointing out that this does not automatically lead to an argument that if only you believe in yourself and try, you automatically get rewarded success. Too many people try and try, and then try more - and still must fail. Because life is not fair, or unfair, nor is it offering everybody the same and equal chances.

That you increase your chances does not mean that there is a treshhold beyond which you atomtaically succeed. You can try and give your best and work like crazy - and still not getting a chance. Or simply being unlucky (yiu get sick or have an accident, or a job that you needed to gets tarted simply is not available.

And I would say that for a relative majority of people trying to imporve from social downfalls it is like this - in america as well as in Germany.

The american dream is not that causally acchievable or even enforcable as it is being suggested. Else there would be almost exclusively millionaires. Instead we have more and more poor, and a shrinking middle class, growing debts, growing unemployment, and a policym without realistic orientation or vision. For every winner there seems to be at least a two digit number of loosers, many of whom tried as hard or even harder than the single winner. The rules and the chances and the starting conditions - they all are not the same for everybody.

I would also say that nowhere and never there is a constant, endless, infinite trend upwards, unlimited growth, and such. In a likmited sphere of something, no matter what, unlimited quntities of something simply is not possible, physically. Its one of the big myths of economic theory - and one of the reasons that have led us to the crisis we are in.

Sol nothing in wrong in trying your share to improve your chances, yes. Just to be noted that just becaseu you placed four bids imnstead of just one does not mean that know you automatically become a winner.

However, this all already is a bit off topic. let's get back to the statements of the original essay, or the additional links I gave.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by August

Would this be the annual Subsim meet perchance?

I wish but unfortunately not. I'm treating the Mrs to a weeks holiday over there. Hopefully I can get to a subsim meet because they look like a great thing to do.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

outsiders have been announcing the downfall of the USA for years.

I live in canada, but have travelled extensively through Europe and the USA since the 70s.

Its fashionable up here to criticize the US, but whenever I travel to america, I am struck by the can-do attitude of Americans.

I was in Las Vegas a few months back. It has been especially hard hit by the recession, hotels are empty and slashing room prices, construction projects were abondoned mid-stream, every taxi driver seemed to be a layed-off engineer, yet everyone radiated a positive, self-reliant, optimistic attitude.

There is an energy to the USA and Americans that you dont see anywhere else. It is one of the most politically stable country on earth.

I dont see it going down any time soon.

just far enough, the world is full of people who complain but who does not act, and when it really counts,nothing in the world can replace endurance.Perseverance and determination far railing It is to know me no indication that the U.S. is going down, rather long-term upward

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Instead we have more and more poor, and a shrinking middle class, growing debts, growing unemployment, and a policym without realistic orientation or vision. For every winner there seems to be at least a two digit number of loosers, many of whom tried as hard or even harder than the single winner.

All of those problems have existed in my country for hundreds of years yet we still endure.

The rules and the chances and the starting conditions - they all are not the same for everybody.

They never have been, ever, in any human society ever created. You have a choice to overcome adversity or to surrender to it.

However, this all already is a bit off topic. let's get back to the statements of the original essay, or the additional links I gave.

Go ahead. I have already addressed them to my satisfaction.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Skybird

However, this all already is a bit off topic. let's get back to the statements of the original essay, or the additional links I gave.

I dont see anything new in the Spiegel article which has not been seen in every other recession. The article is just a series of meaningless anecdotes by a writer with pre-conceived notions.

I have a lot of anecdotes also if that is what you are looking for.

Over the past decades, I have seen many Canadians, friends and acquaintances I know, move to the states to seek their fortune, armed with nothing more than a university degree. Very few came back.

Right now, I know many canadian businesses which are investing in the USA, getting into position for the recovery and the next boom.

Pre-2008, I met many ex-pat canadians, now living in the USA, all earning more money then they would have made here, paying less in taxes and enjoying a higher standard of living because everything costs less in America. yes, many have had to change jobs or downsize because of the recession, but that is the price you pay to be an american.

The USA has always had a boom or bust, radical free enterprise ethos. You make more money and enjoy the good life in bullish times, but don't expect to have much of a social safety net when the bear rolls in.

It's not good or bad, it is just the way they choose to live. If you want the government to take care of you from the cradle to the grave, to have your life mapped out from the moment you are born, you don't live in the U.S.A., you move to Sweden...or maybe Germany..

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I dont see anything new in the Spiegel article which has not been seen in every other recession. The article is just a series of meaningless anecdotes by a writer with pre-conceived notions.

I have a lot of anecdotes also if that is what you are looking for.

Over the past decades, I have seen many Canadians, friends and acquaintances I know, move to the states to seek their fortune, armed with nothing more than a university degree. Very few came back.

Right now, I know many canadian businesses which are investing in the USA, getting into position for the recovery and the next boom.

Pre-2008, I met many ex-pat canadians, now living in the USA, all earning more money then they would have made here, paying less in taxes and enjoying a higher standard of living because everything costs less in America. yes, many have had to change jobs or downsize because of the recession, but that is the price you pay to be an american.

The USA has always had a boom or bust, radical free enterprise ethos. You make more money and enjoy the good life in bullish times, but don't expect to have much of a social safety net when the bear rolls in.

It's not good or bad, it is just the way they choose to live. If you want the government to take care of you from the cradle to the grave, to have your life mapped out from the moment you are born, you don't live in the U.S.A., you move to Sweden...or maybe Germany..

had it been a long time ago, sure there are safety nets in many other countries also in the world,but things have changed and are not as many people think that welfare is a huge generous life at least not in Sweden, and so there will be, which was more for approx 20 years ago.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

All of those problems have existed in my country for hundreds of years yet we still endure.

"We"? You leave many of your people behind. and their numbers are growing, indicate your own statistics by your own offices.

They never have been, ever, in any human society ever created. You have a choice to overcome adversity or to surrender to it.

Overcoming adversity is not a choice. you can only to try that - but even if you try your best you may fail due to factors outside your reach and responsiblity. I agree that there are people, though, who choose to surrender. this may be for different reasons. They can be the often bashed sopcial parasites. They can also be people who have tried in vein for so long that courage has lost them. Not everybody is a superman with unlimited reserves of optimism and energy. Sometimes some people simply give up. Not because they are parasites or are lazy or bad characters, but simply because at some point enough is enough, and there is no going on without a helping hand.

Sometimes, help is needed. Where help gets abused and exploited - that is where I start to have problems with it.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

"We"? You leave many of your people behind. and their numbers are growing, indicate your own statistics by your own offices.

Yeah that's right "we". America has always been a place where you earn your living and thank God for it. Sure, there are going to be people who don't do as well in hard times as they do in good times but that doesn't mean that "American is on it's way down".

Besides, you've never believed our governments statistics before Skybird, why do you suddenly take them as gospel now?

[FIREWALL]

Don't you guys get tired of being Skybirds Lab Rats ?

[Tchocky]

I think the "American Dream" that's being put out in this thread is somewhat romanticised, and not something that's in current play, or has been for some time.

Death of a Salesman, anyone?

Yes, in America people rise and fall faster than elsewhere, the relative lack of state/social supports is balanced out by a dynamism that those same supports can throttle. Economic booms boost stronger, and depressions hit harder. 'twas ever thus.
The curious situation now is that there is a weakness in almost all economic and social sectors, brought on by a financial crisis that was proportionally more destructive due to the increased interlinking of the economy as a whole.

Yes there are serious concerns regarding equality, no the current trend is not socially optimal (certainly in my view of what America is about). But on the way down? Doubt it very much.

EDIT - bloody hell that's unreadable