maintain depth

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by DelphiUniverse

It's not a bug. It's a shame they "fixed" something that should not be fixed.

The pressure is on all sides of the boat, pushing down, inwards, and UP. In fact the bottom of the boat is deeper and under more pressure, therefore the tendency is to rise, like a balloon. It must be trimmed in order to maintain depth. The reason a boat underwater tends to sink is that the boat leaks, which increases the internal weight of the boat, requiring constant retrimming.

A boat at 200 meters can rise or dive with the dive planes even if it is only travelling at two knots. If it stops it has no way of changing depth except with the pumps, which make a lot of noise. If the boat is moving it has control, though this may be compromised by damage allowing water in.

Bottom line: If your boat in the game can't be controlled at depth except with high speeds, and with no damage, it is indeed a bug.

[DelphiUniverse]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The pressure is on all sides of the boat, pushing down, inwards, and UP.

Yes but it is the top pressure that is really relevant for maintaining depth. The reason it is pushing in all directions is the same principle as how quicksand works. Water molecules "roll".

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Bottom line: If your boat in the game can't be controlled at depth except with high speeds, and with no damage, it is indeed a bug.

You CAN control it, with the pumps. Also do not forget the difference between cold and hot water.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

There should be a 'maintain depth' button on the interface.

[Krauter]

There is.. if you're using Churchs Keyboard Commands it's A

[Ragtag]

It doesn't help!

[Ducimus]

You know I love watching people gnashing their teeth over this subject. It (and a few other minor items) are inherited behavior from SH4. Seems like most people here aren't aware of that for some reason.

So here's the short version:

After 196 -200 meters (or 600 feet), there's this magical barrier you pass where the submarine's pumps can't keep up with the leaks. As i recall from watching the development of the NYGM anti-hummingbird mod, your sub is always leaking. This particular behavior, is inheirted from SH3 to some extent. You don't see this because a leak below a certain amount is not reported on the damage screen. So as you cross what i refer to the 200 meter/600 foot barrier, your boat loses boyancy and starts sinking. The only way to stop the decent, is to accelerate to flank speed.... err im sorry.. "extreme speed ahead".

Order rise all you want, but your boat will not move to a shallower depth until you blow ballast, thereby increasing boyancy. Reduce your speed , and you start to sink because you have too much negative boyancy. Hency why i say, pumps can't keep up with the leaks after 200 meters. (edit: supporting evidence is behavior in trim gauges. They peg out after 600 feet) How to adjust the pump rate? I never did figure that out, or even if it's possible.

An interesting side note is that crash speed (at least in SH4), seems to have an effect on this. ( http://forum.kickinbak.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1885 )

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I think I'll rather command a Destroyer than a lousy sub.

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

You know I love watching people gnashing their teeth over this subject. It (and a few other minor items) are inherited behavior from SH4. Seems like most people here aren't aware of that for some reason.

So here's the short version:

After 196 -200 meters (or 600 feet), there's this magical barrier you pass where the submarine's pumps can't keep up with the leaks. As i recall from watching the development of the NYGM anti-hummingbird mod, your sub is always leaking. This particular behavior, is inheirted from SH3 to some extent. You don't see this because a leak below a certain amount is not reported on the damage screen. So as you cross what i refer to the 200 meter/600 foot barrier, your boat loses boyancy and starts sinking. The only way to stop the decent, is to accelerate to flank speed.... err im sorry.. "extreme speed ahead".

Order rise all you want, but your boat will not move to a shallower depth until you blow ballast, thereby increasing boyancy. Reduce your speed , and you start to sink because you have too much negative boyancy. Hency why i say, pumps can't keep up with the leaks after 200 meters. (edit: supporting evidence is behavior in trim gauges. They peg out after 600 feet) How to adjust the pump rate? I never did figure that out, or even if it's possible.

An interesting side note is that crash speed (at least in SH4), seems to have an effect on this. ( http://forum.kickinbak.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1885 )

See I found this weird because in SH4 while doing Dive Tests (Kudos to TMO for Training Missions I went all the way to 1000ft at 1/3 and could ascend with no problem.

Same thing in this game where I took a VIIC out for kicks and dove as deep as she'd go. True, while at All Stop she sank to the bottom, but once I got to 569M and went 1/3 I could control her pretty easily. I forget my Mod loadout at the time, but I have yet to try it again. I can test it maybe tomorrow if you'd all like the results?

Cheers,

Krauter

[Ragtag]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

You know I love watching people gnashing their teeth over this subject. It (and a few other minor items) are inherited behavior from SH4. Seems like most people here aren't aware of that for some reason.

So here's the short version:

After 196 -200 meters (or 600 feet), there's this magical barrier you pass where the submarine's pumps can't keep up with the leaks. As i recall from watching the development of the NYGM anti-hummingbird mod, your sub is always leaking. This particular behavior, is inheirted from SH3 to some extent. You don't see this because a leak below a certain amount is not reported on the damage screen. So as you cross what i refer to the 200 meter/600 foot barrier, your boat loses boyancy and starts sinking. The only way to stop the decent, is to accelerate to flank speed.... err im sorry.. "extreme speed ahead".

Order rise all you want, but your boat will not move to a shallower depth until you blow ballast, thereby increasing boyancy. Reduce your speed , and you start to sink because you have too much negative boyancy. Hency why i say, pumps can't keep up with the leaks after 200 meters. (edit: supporting evidence is behavior in trim gauges. They peg out after 600 feet) How to adjust the pump rate? I never did figure that out, or even if it's possible.

An interesting side note is that crash speed (at least in SH4), seems to have an effect on this. ( http://forum.kickinbak.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1885 )

The point is that it happens at 75 meters. Can't go silent and maintain depth over 75m with the VIIA/B. Again, this is a confirmed bug that didn't make it in the last patch afaik. I would like to fix that and it IS possible. It's been done in 2 mods but i don't want all the additional stuff that has been changed in those mods.

[Wolfling04]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The pressure is on all sides of the boat, pushing down, inwards, and UP. In fact the bottom of the boat is deeper and under more pressure, therefore the tendency is to rise, like a balloon. It must be trimmed in order to maintain depth. The reason a boat underwater tends to sink is that the boat leaks, which increases the internal weight of the boat, requiring constant retrimming.

Thanks Sailor Steve, answers my question.

[Krauter]

Lol oh God.. not another Argument Delphin?

First of all: I DO understand the principles of flight (ie: Speed [Velocity is in fact the energy of the aircraft moving forward], Gravity, Drag and Lift..)

Second: As Steve pointed out the Submarine (U-boat if you want to be specific.. A U-boat is in fact a submersible craft thus it belongs to the 'submarine' family of craft..) has pressure on all sides, the same as when an aircraft rises to a higher altitude it loses pressure (and thus air density) out in the atmosphere. How is the Downwards pressure relevant to keeping depth? If you have an upwards pressure that will play an equally important role in maintaining depth (Laws of physics.. Every action has an equal and opposite re-action)

Third: The point of NOT using the pumps is to remain quiet ~ stealthy, invisble <--- the tools of the submarine trade... Thus using speed to maintain depth is inadvisable as it broadcasts your position to anyone listening.

[DelphiUniverse]

Originally Posted by Krauter

First of all: I DO understand the principles of flight (ie: Speed [Velocity is in fact the energy of the aircraft moving forward], Gravity, Drag and Lift..)

You may or may not, but in the posts below, you didnt profess your knowledge. Perhaps you can improve on it in the next posts for all I know.

Originally Posted by Krauter

How is the Downwards pressure relevant to keeping depth? If you have an upwards pressure that will play an equally important role in maintaining depth (Laws of physics.. Every action has an equal and opposite re-action)

Downward pressure decreases when the angle of attack increases or decreases.

Originally Posted by Krauter

Third: The point of NOT using the pumps is to remain quiet ~ stealthy, invisble <--- the tools of the submarine trade... Thus using speed to maintain depth is inadvisable as it broadcasts your position to anyone listening.

I don't suggest using the pumps, I suggest maintaining a healthy depth and then a healthy trim to maintain depth.

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by DelphiUniverse

You may or may not, but in the posts below, you didnt profess your knowledge. Perhaps you can improve on it in the next posts for all I know.



Downward pressure decreases when the angle of attack increases or decreases.



I don't suggest using the pumps, I suggest maintaining a healthy depth and then a healthy trim to maintain depth.

Your arguments are turning in circles.

I'm not going to bite the bait about my knowledge or lack thereof of flight and it's principles. This is a subsim about submarines.. if you'd like to pursue that discussion PM me.

Downward pressure may increase as the *dive angle* increases or decreases as you concede. BUT so too will the pressure inwards and UPWARDS.

You CAN control it, with the pumps.

Here you state to use the pumps. I may just be pulling up random quotes, but I digress, my point is, using the pumps, though they're useful, defeats the purpose of the submarines stealthy nature. Unless you're contact is deaf or is plain stupid, using the pumps is not advisable.

[DelphiUniverse]

Originally Posted by Krauter

Your arguments are turning in circles.

My arguments is not turning in circles. I said you "CAN" use the pump, it does not mean you should. In my next argument I clearly said i favor a healthy dive policy.

Originally Posted by Krauter

I'm not going to bite the bait about my knowledge or lack thereof of flight and it's principles. This is a subsim about submarines.. if you'd like to pursue that discussion PM me.

You have already done so, there is no need to continue on your faulty analysis regarding the flight elements you posted earlier.

Originally Posted by Krauter

Downward pressure may increase as the *dive angle* increases or decreases as you concede. BUT so too will the pressure inwards and UPWARDS.

Yes, how could it be that we agreed on that. But you missed the point. The point is that you are working against less forces when it is pitched and therefore you are able to maintain depth more easily with engine power.

Originally Posted by Krauter

Here you state to use the pumps. I may just be pulling up random quotes, but I digress, my point is, using the pumps, though they're useful, defeats the purpose of the submarines stealthy nature. Unless you're contact is deaf or is plain stupid, using the pumps is not advisable.

Look in the top of this post.

[Wolfling04]

Get your suit Krauter