Obama supports "Ground Zero Mosque" (of course he does)

[Aramike]

From AVG's link:

America is a free country where you can build whatever you want — but not anywhere. That’s why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities.

These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics. Others are for more profound reasons of common decency and respect for the sacred. No commercial tower over Gettysburg, no convent at Auschwitz — and no mosque at ground zero.

Build it anywhere but there.

The governor of New York offered to help find land to build the mosque elsewhere. A mosque really seeking to build bridges, Rauf’s ostensible hope for the structure, would accept the offer. It was refused.

Gotta love Krauthammer.

[AVGWarhawk]

A place is made sacred by a widespread belief that it was visited by the miraculous or the transcendent (Lourdes, the Temple Mount), by the presence there once of great nobility and sacrifice (Gettysburg), or by the blood of martyrs and the indescribable suffering of the innocent (Auschwitz).
When we speak of ground zero as hallowed ground, what we mean is that it belongs to those who suffered and died there — and that such ownership obliges us, the living, to preserve the dignity and memory of the place, never allowing it to be forgotten, trivialized or misappropriated.
That’s why Disney’s early ’90s proposal to build an American history theme park near Manassas Battlefield was defeated by a broad coalition fearing vulgarization of the Civil War. It’s why the commercial viewing tower built right on the border of Gettysburg was taken down by the Park Service. It’s why while no one objects to Japanese cultural centers, the idea of putting one up at Pearl Harbor would be offensive.
And why Pope John Paul II ordered the Carmelite nuns to leave the convent they had established at Auschwitz. He was in no way devaluing their heartfelt mission to pray for the souls of the dead. He was teaching them a lesson in respect: This is not your place, it belongs to others. However pure your voice, better to let silence reign.
Even Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who denounced opponents of the proposed 15-story mosque and Islamic center as tramplers on religious freedom, asked the mosque organizers “to show some special sensitivity to the situation.” Yet, as columnist Rich Lowry pointedly noted, the government has no business telling churches how to conduct their business, shape their message, or show “special sensitivity” to anyone about anything. Bloomberg was inadvertently conceding the claim of those he excoriates for opposing the mosque, namely, that ground zero is unlike any other place and therefore unique criteria govern what can be done there.
Bloomberg’s implication is clear: If the proposed mosque were controlled by “insensitive” Islamist radicals either excusing or celebrating 9/11, he would not support its construction.
But then, why not? By the mayor’s own expansive view of religious freedom, by what right do we dictate the message of any mosque? There’s no guarantee this couldn’t happen in the future. Religious institutions in this country are autonomous. Who is to say that the mosque won’t one day hire an Anwar al-Aulaqi — spiritual mentor to the Fort Hood shooter and the Christmas Day bomber, and one-time imam at the Virginia mosque attended by two of the 9/11 terrorists?
An Aulaqi preaching in Virginia is a security problem. An Aulaqi preaching at ground zero is a sacrilege.
Location matters. ground zero is the site of the greatest mass murder in American history — perpetrated by Muslims of a particular Islamist orthodoxy in whose cause they died and in whose name they killed.
Of course that strain represents a minority of Muslims. Islam is no more intrinsically Islamist than present-day Germany is Nazi — yet despite contemporary Germany’s innocence, no German of good will would think of proposing a German cultural center at, say, Treblinka.
Which makes you wonder about the good will behind Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s proposal. This man has called U.S. policy “an accessory to the crime” of 9/11 and, when asked whether Hamas is a terrorist organization, replied, “I’m not a politician. ... The issue of terrorism is a very complex question.”
America is a free country where you can build whatever you want — but not anywhere. That’s why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities.
These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics. Others are for more profound reasons of common decency and respect for the sacred. No commercial tower over Gettysburg, no convent at Auschwitz — and no mosque at ground zero.
Build it anywhere but there.
The governor of New York offered to help find land to build the mosque elsewhere. A mosque really seeking to build bridges, Rauf’s ostensible hope for the structure, would accept the offer. It was refused.
© 2010, The Washington Post Writers Group

To reach Charles Krauthammer, send e-mail to letters@ charleskrauthammer.com.

Posted on Mon, Aug. 16, 2010 10:15 PM

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2010/08/16...#ixzz0wsbmIseZ

[tater]

I think that in fact this mosque is getting POSITIVE special treatment because of religion. THAT, I have a problem with.

Would, for example, the Westborough (sp?) Baptist Church have had any problems? (assuming their inbreed congregation could cobble up enough money to buy a hotdog stand in NYC, let alone a large parcel of land) That is the "god hates fags" church.

Think THAT would manage to get through zoning in NYC? Or would they have found SOME reason to disallow them—say in the same area as Stonewall in the Village.

My guess is that "god hates fags" in the Village would manage to get disallowed using the same legal methods used to ALLOW a mosque.

[mookiemookie]

When we speak of ground zero as hallowed ground, what we mean is that it belongs to those who suffered and died there — and that such ownership obliges us, the living, to preserve the dignity and memory of the place, never allowing it to be forgotten, trivialized or misappropriated.

Oh give it a rest, Krauthammer. How much of Lower Manhattan needs to meet the approval of the 9/11 victims/families of victims? Does every bodega need to include a picture of an eagle crying over a burning twin towers for it to be built? Does the Subway sandwich shop need to give a portion of its proceeds to the NYFD?

Who is to say that the mosque won’t one day hire an Anwar al-Aulaqi — spiritual mentor to the Fort Hood shooter and the Christmas Day bomber, and one-time imam at the Virginia mosque attended by two of the 9/11 terrorists?

What the hell does that have to do with anything? Whos to say the church that no one would have a problem with if it were built there would spawn another Timothy McVeigh? Whos to say!? We need to start using "Who's to say!?!?! OMG Think of the children!" as our basis for handing out building permits?

America is a free country where you can build whatever you want — but not anywhere. That’s why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities.

And this place passed zoning. It's got city permits.

Barf.

[tater]

Yes, it passed NYC zoning. The point is should it have?

Again, as long as this didn't get special PC treatment because it's muslim, then you are right, NYC decided what they wanted, we should all get over it.

But I have to say that if it was some Christian hate-church (the worst Christian church like those "god hates fags" guys are pretty much in line with mainstream Islam, tolerance wise), it would not get permission in the Village, for example. They'd have found some reason to deny it.

As long as the Mosque didn't get special treatment (so NYC could look like they bend over backwards to be tolerant of the hateful religion responsible for 9-11), it's NYC's decision, and they clearly have spoken.

I however can not support that mosque at this location.

You don't have to support it, but unless you have some legal grounds to oppose it then tough luck on the opposition front.
But since it isn't actually at the WTC site how far from the site should mosques be prohibited, obviously a couple of blocks ain't enough. Would a ten block radius be sufficient? Maybe draw a line along Canal and say no Mosques below this ? Maybe close all mosques in Manhatten or in NYC.
Though of course any ofthat would be unconstitutional just like closing the shrines was when Pearl Harbour was still only part of a territory

nowhere did I say buildings should not be built because bigots. I posted that certain buildings will be attacked in hate crime activities and this mosque will probably suffer the same hate crime activity

You object to the building and say it will probably be attacked, bringing that aspect of thought into a topic where you are objecting to the building is saying part of your objection is because the building may be attacked.

I do not care if it pre-existed.

So you only care once the "liberal" media and politicians build a controversy.

It has created controversy with the highest in the land.

You mean the created controversy has created controversy which then feeds upon itself.

So what are you suggesting? Insensativity does not play a roll here? Shove political correctness and just build?

Of course insensitivity plays a roll, which is why it should be left to go ahead.

Gotta love Krauthammer.

Is that because he's as thick as pig excrement?

From AVG's link:

"That’s why we have zoning laws."
Point proved Krauthammer is dumb.
"It’s why while no one objects to Japanese cultural centers, the idea of putting one up at Pearl Harbor would be offensive."
Really dumb.

Yes, it passed NYC zoning. The point is should it have?

What possible grounds can they have refused on without facing a constitutional challenge they would be bound to lose?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

No, I believe that it would probably be in the best interest of those wanting to build this mosque at this particular site think about finding a different location. (I'm not alone on this nor is Obama going to comment on the wisdom of building at such a site...because there is none)

But building it in tis and no other pqalce is the intention behind it. Ifd oyu think they do not know that they are raising an issue, then you most likely are wrong. the challenge is absolutely intentionally. It is no mispercpetion, and it is no niavety of theirs, and no misclaculation. It is a plan.

I have always stated this building will be an issue for a long time to come.

Yes. Right that is the purpose of that building, in that place, and in no other.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

What possible grounds can they have refused on without facing a constitutional challenge they would be bound to lose?

Zoning? There would be no Constitutional issue. Building permits are statutory, not a "Right." Zoning could come up with any reason they wanted, they do so all the time. Zoning laws have plenty of wiggle to allow the city in question pretty broad control over what goes where. Really. In addition, the historical buildings guys made (and make, every day) 100% arbitrary rulings. They allowed the mosque because the extant building was not "architecturally interesting" and could therefor be torn down. That is 100% subjective. Had they wanted to deny, they'd have said the 1851 (whatever it is) building on the site is important. Game over. They do this all the time.

Anyone who has ever dealt with US zoning officials, or neighborhood associations, or historic preservation boards knows that what I'm saying is true. They can basically rule as they see fit, and you're beholden to them.

Again, my only problem is iof they gave the mosque a pass they would not give ALL other comers. IF they would have denied permits for anyone else, then they got special treatment---and that would violate the 1st Amendment (establishment).

no one opposes muslums from building a mosque, there are hundreds of them that were built all over new york but to those who support building this mosque at ground zero, IMO then you have to also support a nazi monument at the concentration camps celebrating the killing of the jews and you must support a monument being built at pearl harbor celebrating the attack on our base there since they would symbolise the exact same purpose for being built, to cellebrate a victory over your enemy. and you can deny it all you want but this mosque is being built at this site for the sole reason to become a monument to the terrorists victory over america at that site, the Imam said it himself that he chose that site specifically because it would overlook the site of 9/11

and as for the private money being used to build the mosque, they have no money as of this moment, the Imam has only $18,000 which probably isnt enough to even cover the building permits but it has been reported that the US goverment will give them several million dollars to help build it through a goverment grant program. the remaining money will almost certainly come from terrorist orginazations since the modderate muslum groups have denied to fund it saying it is in bad taste to build there.

do those who speak about this as a religeous tollerance issue really doubt that this building will not be a muslum extremists tourist attraction to come see the site of the great victory over the great satin America. "come to pray to Ala at the very site where our brothers martered themselves for our cause" will be the banner they will hang over the door.

if you cant see this then you should go bring your family on a vacation to Iran and see if your "tollerance" will keep you out of jail or from being beheaded just for being an American. see what the muslum extremists really think about your warm and fuzzy tollerance as they laugh at you.

[Moeceefus]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Lower Manhattan isn't some holy sanctified ground either. Has anyone actually been there? It's filthy, grungy, dirty water hot dogs sold by a swarthy vaguely middle eastern guy, street vendors hawking Twin Towers garbage, plain ol' New York City. There's fast food joints, sushi restaurants, bodegas and crap just like any other downtown. I have no idea why people are trying to turn this into some kind of holy shrine. Build the damn mosque already, just like the million others in NYC.

Have you actually been there?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Moeceefus

Have you actually been there?

Yep.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Webster

no one opposes muslums from building a mosque, there are hundreds of them that were built all over new york but to those who support building this mosque at ground zero, IMO then you have to also support a nazi monument at the concentration camps celebrating the killing of the jews and you must support a monument being built at pearl harbor celebrating the attack on our base there since they would symbolise the exact same purpose for being built, to cellebrate a victory over your enemy. and you can deny it all you want but this mosque is being built at this site for the sole reason to become a monument to the terrorists victory over america at that site, the Imam said it himself that he chose that site specifically because it would overlook the site of 9/11

and as for the private money being used to build the mosque, they have no money as of this moment, the Imam has only $18,000 which probably isnt enough to even cover the building permits but it has been reported that the US goverment will give them several million dollars to help build it through a goverment grant program. the remaining money will almost certainly come from terrorist orginazations since the modderate muslum groups have denied to fund it saying it is in bad taste to build there.

do those who speak about this as a religeous tollerance issue really doubt that this building will not be a muslum extremists tourist attraction to come see the site of the great victory over the great satin America. "come to pray to Ala at the very site where our brothers martered themselves for our cause" will be the banner they will hang over the door.

if you cant see this then you should go bring your family on a vacation to Iran and see if your "tollerance" will keep you out of jail or from being beheaded just for being an American. see what the muslum extremists really think about your warm and fuzzy tollerance as they laugh at you.

Oh come on Webster...it is a community center.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Oh come on Webster...it is a community center.

open your eyes AVG and look in to the background of this Imam and not just what he says in english but what he really says when he is talking to non americans.

if you still dissagree then i guess we dissagree on this but he tells the west what they want to hear but then says the opposite when speaking to others

i have no doubt this man wishes harm to america

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Webster

open your eyes AVG and look in to the background of this Imam and not just what he says in english but what he really says when he is talking to non americans.

if you still dissagree then i guess we dissagree on this but he tells the west what they want to hear but then says the opposite when speaking to others

i have no doubt this man wishes harm to america

I was kidding Webster! I see this a big HA HA at the US. Others not so much.