Religious Poll

[Skybird]

@ Castout


========

Is this thread really necessary? This forum is no missionising board or a board over confessions on personal fantasies one holds. Where there is no religious propaganda pushed into the public space, there no anti-religious people must feel provoked by being missionised and must not push their antireligious stuff into public as well - like Castout and me just have demonstrated: the one guy starts to preach, the other sends back a shot in reply. Peace is maintained, and everybody is still free to think what he wants in private, with the public space not needing to bother for either the one or the other. And that's how it should be in a secular society, with any kind of relgion there is and atheism as well. Keep your oh so precious convictions pro of contra to yourselves, where they belong. They belong nowhere else than to the inside of your mind. Nature, the world, the cosmos give nothing for them, and many people live here that do not want to need giving time and awareness for them either.

Play your radio at volume levels where you do not bother your neighbours.

I would simply lock this and similiar threads.

[Castout]

@skybird I wasn't referring to picking up a religion.

What little I know about God is that

God is kind enough to actually love the people who don't know Him at all and powerful enough to literally change our heart. Generous enough to give without being asked, loving enough to give what was asked even when it was really ridiculous, still enough not to give everything that we asked, and strict enough to know that He is GOD such that we are reminded that we're never be on equal terms with God,

God I know is NOT MEEK. Never was, never is and never will be.

[Herr-Berbunch]

According to Ninian Smart's respected definition of a religion, even football (either proper football or 'handegg' ) is a religion... including the wars!

This forum is no missionising board or a board over confessions on personal fantasies one holds.

Says a man on a mission

[antikristuseke]

This about covers my opinion on any and all religions

[jumpy]

hehe funny links.

I always figured that god knew adam and eve were flawed beings (as he made them) and that they would not be able to resist temptation, so in their naivety, the test he set them to endure was beyond their nature to resist.
Doesn't seem like a fair thing to me; what's so loving and forgiving about a setting someone up for certain failure? For what?

That's pretty much the first thing I recall thinking about bible stories as a youngster.
That, and later on, comparative reading of classical greek literature reinforced my understanding of religion to be of earthly origin - essentially there's some very human qualities associated with god/gods, not because we are created in their image, but because man invented religion and peopled it with deities derived from what he knew about the world around him. The greek gods are good examples of this - a certain honesty to them that betrays their origins; capricious, constantly fighting amongst each other, *******, drinking and generally making life better or worse as they saw fit, for those mere mortals who dared to be noticed.

The practising of one's religion ought to be a private business, not some public organisation with a reputation for fallacy, trampling about the world getting up other peoples noses with its own hubris, as is often the case.
But that's only what I think.

[NeonSamurai]

Lets step away from the sermonizing please.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Castout

@skybird I wasn't referring to picking up a religion.

What little I know about God is that

God is kind enough to actually love the people who don't know Him at all and powerful enough to literally change our heart. Generous enough to give without being asked, loving enough to give what was asked even when it was really ridiculous, still enough not to give everything that we asked, and strict enough to know that He is GOD such that we are reminded that we're never be on equal terms with God,

God I know is NOT MEEK. Never was, never is and never will be.

Fine. Must we be interested in your precious little sermon? Don't think so. Keep your fantasies where they belong - inside your head.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Peace is maintained, and everybody is still free to think what he wants in private, with the public space not needing to bother for either the one or the other. And that's how it should be in a secular society, with any kind of relgion there is and atheism as well. Keep your oh so precious convictions pro of contra to yourselves, where they belong. They belong nowhere else than to the inside of your mind. Nature, the world, the cosmos give nothing for them, and many people live here that do not want to need giving time and awareness for them either.

The same could be said of many other subjects where people hold "convictions" and we talk about them. Besides, this is a forum where people are free to hold discussions within the established guidelines, including subjects that I'm sure you'd be happy to see absolutely no "time and awareness" devoted to.

In all fairness, you bring up Islam and why it is evil on a pretty regular basis, so you discuss religion too. What if we had a Muslim here who disagreed with your views for religious reasons, or idealogical reasons, or political reasons? Should such a discussion then be forfeit, simply because it involves religion? Should we all be happy then to let the both of you keep your opinions to yourselves?

Religion, including atheism, is a broad subject with far-reaching implications in the secular world. It affects the behaviour of people, the values they hold, and the societies they live in, and is in turn affected by the same. Banning discussion of it is no different from banning discussion of any other institution. Ergo, I feel anyone who wants to should be able to express their opinions on religion, especially in the course of making a point or describing a position they hold.

There can still be peace, so long as people play by the rules they're always supposed to be playing by and demonstrate respect for others.

edit-

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Lets step away from the sermonizing please.

And on that note, I will point out to the fellow believers that sermonizing does you no good here, anyway.

[NeonSamurai]

I don't think any of us have an issue with discussing religion in an intellectual and rational fashion. There have been several discussions on that. Also anyone is free to challenge Sky's views on Islam regardless of their own religious views, just as Sky is free to espouse his views. All provided they stay within the bounds of rational discourse.

What we do not need is sermons though. Sermons tend to go beyond the limits of rationality (ie logically demonstrable or provable) and intellectualism. Bluntly put they go into the realm of fantasy; of pure hypothesis without any physical backing. This is the realm of faith and belief. This is also the area where people tend to get very angry if their beliefs are challenged. It is pointless to discuss such stuff as the debate will go nowhere, the believer will continue to believe no matter how much rational counter evidence is provided, and both parties will get upset in the end. That and I have to say that I strongly dislike when others insist on throwing their religious beliefs in my face. I don't care what you believe in, just don't expect me to believe it too just because you do. I also do not like organized religion as I think it generally causes far more harm than good.

That said, if you choose to believe in God, Jesus, Muhammad, the tooth fairy, the flying spaghetti monster, or the invisible pink unicorn in the sky. I am happy for you, believe it all you want if it helps you.

[Skybird]

@ Lance

I do not start discussions where I try to convince others of my religious convictions. Criticism of a relgion, Islam in case of your reference, is something different in this case, because mainly it effects fields of politics and our societies, and I would give a damn for Islam if people falling for it just would keep it a private issue that they do not want to effect society. Unfortunately, the islamic agenda is being driven into our societies day in day out, it does not differ between plitics and religion. Thus, it inevitably always is politics, and to me, it is more politics than religion.

If you want to compare me to Castout's virtuous preaching that he intends as a form of missionising, you would need to show me where I start threads on atheism and trying to missionise people into it. I don't, and in a longer ago past at best started a thread on Pat Condell - and even this is long ago.

But I react to people reserving the right that they may sing their religious song and the neighbourhood just has to listen to it each time they do. so if they show up on the scene, so do I, and when they keep private what is a private thing anyway, then I stay put, too. The magic word is: reciprocity. Save me from you relgious sermoins, and I save you from my atheist criticsm. Bring your sermon upon us and upon me, and I am going after you. That simple. because in a scular society like ours, many people think like I do - and do not want to be bothered by other people's religous mission time and again. Like I also do not want to listen to your radio time and again - so the hell keep the volumen at a levbel where others must not listen to your music, too.

It is illogical to label atheism a religion. You want to give it a bad name: that of religion. But atheism is no relgion. It is the rejection of theistic relgion, and the demand for evidence for theistic claims. You could as well conclude that refusing to learn how to drive a car is a form of car driving. It is absurd.

Neon Samurai brought it to the point when calling it "sermonising". I reserve the right to deand that your freedom of speech ends where you demand me to listen to your sermon even if I do not want that, so that you imply that I must leave the public place/space, because you claim it for yourself. That is kind of an abuse of free speech. Also, it is known by now where religious threads lead to - right onto that track we are now on, again.

If I would do like this on atheism, and launch threads on it time and again, you would not so much call it free speech, but me trying to dominate the forum and driving people away in disgust. Having a discussion on religious implications of some matters, is one thing, for example if discussing the impact of scientific insight on human history and culture and how it changed it. But "sermonising" is something different. Talking about religion in a context that is not religion in itself, is one thing. Propagating religion and why it is so nice to believe in this deity or that goddess, makes missionising the name of the game - and that is something very different than just "talking about religion".

In other words: keep your radio volume such that it does not bother your neighboiurs.And if you park a pickup loaded with that certain brown smelly stuff in the street, don't be surprised if some neigbours become the more upset the longer you wait to remove it again. Missionising means to push religion into the public space - and then it is not religious only anymore but becomes politics, and claim for social influence and power and effcting secular soceity. I do not wish any relgion to shape and form secular societies. Becasue that is the explciti end of secularism - but my freedom and our freedom is worth a thousand times more than any religion's desires or claims for untouchability. and that is why defending freedom can lead to situations where even offending religion can become a moral obligation and a civil duty, if you are serous about freedom.

Keep thy religion to thyself. That's where it belongs - and nowhere else.

[Sailor Steve]

@ Castout and Jumpy: Please reread the forum rules on swearing, psedo-swearing and *********.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

@ Castout and Jumpy: Please reread the forum rules on swearing, psedo-swearing and *********.

The rules state that the use of asterisk as part of the naughty word is against the rules. As in trying to circumvent the filter. Don't see anything about saying **** for example as the filter will censor it anywho.

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

I don't think any of us have an issue with discussing religion in an intellectual and rational fashion.

If you find one, please let me know.

I do not start discussions where I try to convince others of my religious convictions.

A belief in global conspiracies and claiming the existance of non existant legislation fits all the criteria.

I don't, and in a longer ago past at best started a thread on Pat Condell - and even this is long ago.

Thats that failed comedian Sky repeatedly links to when he isn't doing any of his other frequently repeated links or adding another obsessive signature to the bottom of his posts as he isn't preachy on his prolesytising subjects as he has read lots of books which makes him just correct and not at all sermonising.
I do wish he would link to another "Blacks and Muslims are evil" page again as that really illustrates the ugly truth of his own chosen faith.

[WarlordATF]

I don't care what anyone believes, its there choice. However most faiths request that their members spread their message and by telling them to keep it to themselves infringes on their faith.

Those that believe have just as much right to voice it as those who do not and if they can not respect others views how can they expect anyone to respect their point of view?

I believe that there is something greater than that which we can see, hear, touch or measure. I have had situations in my life that have caused me to have this faith, just as i am sure others have had things cause them to believe otherwise, neither side has the right to silence the other because it does not fit in with our own feelings.

I can't force my views onto anyone else, nor would i want to. We must each find our own path through this life, but no one can force me to believe that the faith that has given me comfort in times of hopelessness should be kept to myself because it can not be proven by current science. There are many times throughout history that both science and faith was proven wrong.

I can respect the choice of those who do not believe in God and there right to speak of it, why is it so hard for them to respect the faith of others?

How we choose to live is based on what is in our own hearts and minds and none of us will really know who is right or wrong until that last breath leaves our bodies.