[REL] 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by sergei

Some Feedback:

Hurrah!

Originally Posted by sergei

Loaded up a single mission (TMO+RSRD) that had me patrolling just south of the Bungo Suido in late '42.

Target 1:


My initial 5 marks showed him going vaguely SSE, but I wasn't sure if maybe he'd made a turn at some point or was zig-zagging.

That plot looks like a definate zig to me. You were lucky, as the zig legs aren't massive and I think if you'd left it much longer the target may have zigged away after you fired. I wonder what the average zig length in RSRD is. There are all sorts of rules about when to fire e.g. if the target hasn't sizgged in the last 15 minutes, wait until it does zig and then fire and all sorts of stuff like that.

Originally Posted by sergei

Once I was close enough to get a stad reading I activated the PK and would watch the attack develop on the TDC (occasionally taking another range reading to keep it updated).

It's very important to remember that if you update the range and bearing then, due to a bug in the TDC which does not update the AoB as if the target had moved along the track, you must update the course to what you measured it as, or the TDC will be tracking a different problem.

Originally Posted by sergei

A thought: whilst switching off the radar between readings may make it easier to use because it remembers your last range and bearing, doesn't that also switch off your air search radar? Or is it always on regardless of the state of your surface search radar?

A question: my Gato had listed in the equipment screen an early SJ radar with a range of 20,000 yards. However, I was getting contact out to about 40,000. Is that to do with this mod, or have I FUBARED my game again?

I don't think you can turn off the air search radar, only the SJ.

I think I used the stock setting for ranges, but I may have been drunk when I did it, or sober, or both! Any of those could have caused me to screw something up.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I attacked an Akita Maru with map contacts on, but I plotted the readings. I have given up on manual speed calcs. I used the TDC for that. However the TDC course determinations were inaccurate.

You can't blame the TDC for vastly wrong course and speed, as it's only going off what you tell it. I still can't work out how you managed to get a target going over a 100 knots as that would mean a massive reading or plotting error - are you sure you aren't manouvering between reading and plotting.

[Roger Dodger]

I just tried to install 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit. From what I had been reading on the other thread about this mod, it sounds really kool. Note that I am using only TMO and RSRDC in my MOD list. Also, the MOD hasn't been noted as being compatable, but Ducimus said that it shouldn't cause any problems (I think I read that right).

I installed the MOD (in port), then tried it out using the 'Single War Patrol' #1 (Pogey). The TDC and RADAR came right up, and seem to be working together OK. Then I tried using the Radio/Convoy pull-down map, and all that would show was the extreme lower left corner of the map - no radio at all, just the corner of the map. TMO does change the UserRadio.dds file (verified by loading Convoy Map for TMO + RSRDC ), but the 3D TDC MOD has nothing to do with that particular file.

I disabled the 3D TDC mod, and loaded up again. The Radio/Convoy Map work just fine (either the TMO or the RSRDC model). I tried several times more, always with the same result.

Has anyone else noticed this behaviour, or am I just unique?

[I'm goin' down]

I replayed my attack on the Akita Maru, and sunk the son of a bitch. (Finally.) I tracked with your mod and had three consitent speed readings of 10 kts. The course I drew was parallel to the target's siloutette which was about 350 yds. parallel from the course line I drew all the way down the line. I remembered to reset the stadimeter to the Range Dial after sending speed to the TDC. This old dog can learn a new trick every now and then!

Here are my questions;
1. My course was off by a few degrees. How can In overcome that problem?
2. Why do you turn the TDC on after the last speed reading? I do not understand? I turned it on anyway.
3. I set up for a constant bearing attack. I set the scope at 350 degrees and fired when the target, whose speed was 10 kts. crossed that bearing. One torpedo caused the Akita Maru to blow up and split in half, so I do not know if the others hit. Two of the torpedoes were 36 kts. torpedoes. The rest were 46 kts. How can you do a constant bearng attack with torpedoes of different speeds? I fired the four fast torpedoes first and the two slower torpedoes last? Since the constant bearing attack is based upon the fast torpedo speeds (or is it?), there is a problem when you fire slower running torpedoes I presume.

Next up, attack with map contact off using the mod.

[I'm goin' down]

Another question. Now that I am getting the hang of taking readiings and plottting them using the mod, what else can I use it for? Will there be a tutorial for those additional uses at some point?

[sergei]

Originally Posted by Roger Dodger

Then I tried using the Radio/Convoy pull-down map, and all that would show was the extreme lower left corner of the map - no radio at all, just the corner of the map.

Answered in the map thread.
Dude - I've been chasing you all over the forums!

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I replayed my attack on the Akita Maru, and sunk the son of a bitch. (Finally.) I tracked with your mod and had three consitent speed readings of 10 kts. The course I drew was parallel to the target's siloutette which was about 350 yds. parallel from the course line I drew all the way down the line. I remembered to reset the stadimeter to the Range Dial after sending speed to the TDC. This old dog can learn a new trick every now and then!

Scratch one Maru! Well done!

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Here are my questions;
1. My course was off by a few degrees. How can In overcome that problem?

How many is a few? Literally three degrees won't hurt at all, if it's 30 degrees it will cause problems. Use the TDC's PK to keep a running score of where your data puts the ship and then compare that to the actual measured position of the ship. It's simple to get when you work it out, as there's only one reason for the discrepancies.

I'll see if I can put something together, as it's relatively easy to get if you see it graphically.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

2. Why do you turn the TDC on after the last speed reading? I do not understand? I turned it on anyway.

You turn on the PK to start the solution running. The TDC will then update the position of the target automatically based on the problem you entered and will generate a firing solution based on the changing situation. This constantly changes the gyro angle orders being fed to the torpedoes, so they will always go to the right course for the target. If your initial problem was accurate, then the solution will be accurate. If not, you can check the TDC's position against the actual position and adjust your solution accordingly.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

3. I set up for a constant bearing attack. I set the scope at 350 degrees and fired when the target, whose speed was 10 kts. crossed that bearing. One torpedo caused the Akita Maru to blow up and split in half, so I do not know if the others hit. Two of the torpedoes were 36 kts. torpedoes. The rest were 46 kts. How can you do a constant bearng attack with torpedoes of different speeds? I fired the four fast torpedoes first and the two slower torpedoes last? Since the constant bearing attack is based upon the fast torpedo speeds (or is it?), their is a problem when you fire slower running torpedoes I presume.

When you say you did a constant bearing attack, what do you mean? Do you mean you drew out the lead angle and waited until then to fir, or do you mean that you did some crazy stuff with sending a made up lead angle to the TDC by pointing the scope to a bearing that the target wasn't at?

If you just waited for your drawn bearing the the TDC was operatng the torpedoes and they wouldn't have had zero gyro angles set, unless you fired at the point when the TDC progressed them to zero. If you used a made up bearing, then you shouldn't have hit.

The TDC will also take into account the speed of the torpedoes and will adjust the gyro angles so they all hit the target in the TDC, as long as the problem is accurate.

You don't need 'simple' targetting solutions if you are using the TDC with the PK. You don't have to do anything at all, as the TDC is doing all the work. Remember that the simple tagetting procedures were created for those who didn't want to use automatic targetting, but didn't ike the idea of full on manual targetting with the TDC and PK, which you are now well beyond.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Next up, attack with map contact off using the mod.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Another question. Now that I am getting the hang of taking readiings and plottting them using the mod, what else can I use it for? Will there be a tutorial for those additional uses at some point?

What else is there to do, other than sink ships? You can use it to calibrate the stadimeter, as discussed in the first post. Hmmm, I wonder if Lot's wife shows up on radar.

[I'm goin' down]

[QUOTE=Nisgeis;1455416]

How many is a few? Literally three degrees won't hurt at all, if it's 30 degrees it will cause problems. Use the TDC's PK to keep a running score of where your data puts the ship and then compare that to the actual measured position of the ship. It's simple to get when you work it out, as there's only one reason for the discrepancies.

I'll see if I can put something together, as it's relatively easy to get if you see it graphically.

You turn on the PK to start the solution running. The TDC will then update the position of the target automatically based on the problem you entered and will generate a firing solution based on the changing situation. This constantly changes the gyro angle orders being fed to the torpedoes, so they will always go to the right course for the target. If your initial problem was accurate, then the solution will be accurate. If not, you can check the TDC's position against the actual position and adjust your solution accordingly.

When you say you did a constant bearing attack, what do you mean? Do you mean you drew out the lead angle and waited until then to fir, or do you mean that you did some crazy stuff with sending a made up lead angle to the TDC by pointing the scope to a bearing that the target wasn't at?

If you just waited for your drawn bearing the the TDC was operatng the torpedoes and they wouldn't have had zero gyro angles set, unless you fired at the point when the TDC progressed them to zero. If you used a made up bearing, then you shouldn't have hit.

The TDC will also take into account the speed of the torpedoes and will adjust the gyro angles so they all hit the target in the TDC, as long as the problem is accurate.

You don't need 'simple' targetting solutions if you are using the TDC with the PK. You don't have to do anything at all, as the TDC is doing all the work. Remember that the simple tagetting procedures were created for those who didn't want to use automatic targetting, but didn't ike the idea of full on manual targetting with the TDC and PK, which you are now well beyond. QUOTE]

How do I multiquote messages?

Any graphs, etc. will be helpful.

I hit the little watch after every two bearing and range readings. Let's say I take 6 readings, so i hit the watch three times. When do I activate the PK? Why?

So, you are saying the I do not need the constant bearing attack, Dick O;Kane, Cromwell, Easy Aob, Solution Solver, or pure luck now that I am using your mod. (RR will soon retire to the dust bin of history, where he will join Captain MattJ). Let the TDC do the work, you say. Okay, but what is it doing? Tracking the target? Setting the gyro angle? Creating a lead angle? Setting the Aob? Why do I need to send Aob, or do I? I am familiar with Easy Aob, but for that mod, one still has to set Aob as i recall. Then, after determining range, the PK is activated. What you say is happening is that the TDC has formulated a solution for the course and speed of the target now that it has been activated. How do I know when to fire torpedoes? What is the best bearing and range? Since I did not have the answer to these questions, I reverted to the constant bearing attack, by double clicking the range button with the periscope at 350 degrees, set the Aob at 80 (90 degrees - 10 degrees) and fired when the target crossed the firing point of 350 degrees (360 degrees - 10 degrees). What should I have done instead? Remember, you invented this device, I didn't, but I am trying to understand it.

How can you correct the TDC solution? If the target's course calculated by the TDC is wrong, how will you know and how can you correct it? If you plot its course and the course and speed are different that those set by the TDC, how do you know which are the correct course and speed?

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

How do I multiquote messages?

Copy the Quote blocks. Have [ QUOTE=I'm goin' down;1455422 ] whatever you want to quote [ /QUOTE ] except without the spaces in the Quote blocks.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Any graphs, etc. will be helpful.

I hit the little watch after every two bearing and range readings. Let's say I take 6 readings, so i hit the watch three times. When do I activate the PK?

As soon as you have the information for a target problem, e.g. course, speed and range for the TDC to work on.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Why?

It's the equivalent of 'extending a line along your plot to predict the future course of the target' and then plotting against that to pick up corrections. Assuming that you are closing your target, after a while, if your measured range is closer than your generated range, then the target is either on a course more towards you or it's got a higher speed than you thought or both. Unfortunately due to a bug in the in game TDC it's not as useful as a real TDC, which could be used to detect zigs away and toward.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

So, you are saying the I do not need the constant bearing attack, Dick O;Kane, Cromwell, Easy Aob, Solution Solver, or pure luck now that I am using your mod. (RR will soon retire to the dust bin of history, where he will join Captain MattJ). Let the TDC do the work, you say.

If you can track, plot, get a course and speed and understand what's going on, then yes.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Okay, but what is it doing? Tracking the target? Setting the gyro angle? Creating a lead angle? Setting the Aob?

Yes, yes, no because there is no lead angle when using gyro setting and yes.

The TDC will however tell you what the gyro angle is and if you want, you can wait until the gyro angle is close to zero.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Why do I need to send Aob, or do I? I am familiar with Easy Aob, but for that mod, one still has to set Aob as i recall.

There's too much emphasis on the AoB as that conjures up images of guestimating through the periscope. It's important to realise that AoB is only an expression of the traget's course relative to your own course and the target's relative bearing. When you enter the AoB, you are entering the course. If you change the target's course, the AoB also changes as they are closely related.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Then, after determining range, the PK is activated. What you say is happening is that the TDC has formulated a solution for the course and speed of the target now that it has been activated.

The TDC doesn't calculate a course and speed. The stopwatch icon is just a link to get your crew to do it for you. So, strictly speaking, the TDC will only generate a position for a ship based on information that you give it. Although in game the button to calculate a course and speed are on the TDC controls, it's the crew doing it.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

How do I know when to fire torpedoes? What is the best bearing and range?

Read the tactical situation on the TDC and use that as your guide. Fire torpedoes at the best position you can.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Since I did not have the answer to these questions, I reverted to the constant bearing attack, by double clicking the range button with the periscope at 350 degrees, set the Aob at 80 (90 degrees - 10 degrees) and fired when the target crossed the firing point of 350 degrees (360 degrees - 10 degrees).

It's a miracle you hit anything at all if you had the PK running whilst you did that. Why tell the TDC to point torpdoes at a target that isn't there? It doesn't make sense does it? Surely you should be updating the TDC with information that is accurate? If you point the scope to a bearing where the ship is not and then tell the TDC that the target is there, then you're deliberately entering a wrong problem and you'll get a wrong solution. I don't see the point in going to all that trouble to plot the target and develop an accurate picture of what the ship is doing if you're going to use an attack method which relies on putting in incorrect target data.

By the way, that's not a constant bearing attack either, it's more of an O'Kane attack, except with the PK on (which doesn't work well).

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

What should I have done instead? Remember, you invented this device, I didn't, but I am trying to understand it.

Put the right information in! Right problem = right solution. This mod doesn't change the attack methods, it just makes them more accurate and easier to use. The manual use of the TDC has not changed.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

How can you correct the TDC solution? If the target's course calculated by the TDC is wrong, how will you know and how can you correct it? If you plot its course and the course and speed are different that those set by the TDC, how do you know which are the correct course and speed?

By 'target's course calculated by the TDC' I'm assuming you mean the stopwatch button, which is the same as asking your XO for a target ID. If the course and speed entered into the TDC is wrong then it will show up over time. The more incorrect the problem in the TDC the faster the discrepancise will become obvious.

Think of it this way:

You are standing with a radar set and a car to the North is coming towards you. You first notice it when it's 2 miles away and you estimate that the speed of the car is 60 MPH. After a minute you take another measurement and find that the car is 1.5 miles away, but it's still directly to the North. So, it's obvious that the car isn't going at 60 MPH. If it were, it would be a mile away, so you can adjust your speed accordingly. It's also obvious that the car is travelling due South.

Now imagine that the car isn't travelling directly towards you, but is travelling SW instead. After a minute it won't be directly north of you anymore, so your initial estimate of south was wrong. As it's moved to your NW you know that he is travelling more westwards.

The upcoming TDC tutorial by JCC will help to clear up some things. It's coming soon (TM).

[Roger Dodger]

Originally Posted by sergei

Answered in the map thread.
Dude - I've been chasing you all over the forums!

Sorry about that. I just posted the same message on all three affected threads hoping one of the 'Wise Ones' could give me an answer. I'll check out your answer in 'Maps'.

Thanx for the response.

[Nisgeis]

To avoid hijacking the other thread, the link to the tutorial is here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=172535

Courtesy of John Channing.

[Roger Dodger]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

To avoid hijacking the other thread, the link to the tutorial is here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=172535

Courtesy of John Channing.

My bad - posted in wrong thread. Thanks for the link. Also, downloaded and installed the newest version. Now to get it to work for me.

Beautiful reproduction of TDC and easy way to get to it. Your efforts are appreciated.

[I'm goin' down]

Your statement re reading the tactical solution on the TDC and use that as my guide means to me that I look at the ships dials on left side of the screen, and when the profile of the target ship indicates it is at a good angle to fire at, I let her rip. A broadside profile on the TDc is good and it can be verified via the periscope.

I tried a multiquote and it did not work. I must not understand it.

I thought you reply post was great. Many of my questions have been answered. I could even write a tutorial some day if I knew how to make my screen shots bigger.

[Nisgeis]

Well, a broadside would give you high gyro angles, so are not as reliable as a low gyro angle shot, but as long as your solution is accurate you should hit. Give it a shot and let us know how you get on.

[Patchman123]

What I mean by actually work is that I want the angle on the bow to continually update itself. I saw a documentary that said that the TDC would update the angle on the bow. How come I have to reset it every time I try to shoot a torpedo, when it should update itself.

Have you ever considered having an update to the angle on the bow automatically instead of manually, to fix the AOB problem?

That would be nice.

[I'm goin' down]

Maybe I am more lost than I thought. Once I send range and bearing to the TDC do I have to send Aob? I understand that I have to turn on the PK. However, the The Aob is pointing a 0 degrees. What do I do with that? And if I send Aob to the TDC, do I do it when the PK is activated?