Scorpion and Thresher

[ETR3(SS)]

True, if they manage to shut as many watertight doors as they could. But given the layout of the boat I wouldn't think you would see evidence of collapse in the Engine Room and the Forward Compartment.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS)

True, if they manage to shut as many watertight doors as they could. But given the layout of the boat I wouldn't think you would see evidence of collapse in the Engine Room and the Forward Compartment.

Didn't the back end collapse forward? From around the control surfaces forward to the aft compartment bulkhead.

[ETR3(SS)]

Correct. The stern "telescoped" forward and the sail was blown off as a result of the hull crushing.

[Bubblehead1980]

The revenge sinking isn't my theory, it is one that has been put forward that makes sense and I simply put out some reasons it makes sense.The others do also, I have never said the others are wrong, I just find the soviet sinking "revenge" theory to be plausible and should not be dismissed as it has been by some.

Again, motive, means, and opportunity.

Motive: Years of cold war with some "hot incidents" , ones we may not even know about.US submarines regularly shadowed Soviet subs and ships, Soviets did same.Kind of a tension thing that one could have with another person and then it escalates a bit, maybe not into a full blown fight because you both know you will both maybe get hurt, sizing up your opponent.To put this in Cold War terms....Mututally Assured Destruction, thus why we had so many proxy wars.The Soviets suspected US was responsible for the loss of their submarine in the Pacific, this pissed off many in Soviet Union to say the least.

Revenge is a great and poweful motive for man and since governments are ran by men.What was the US's major motivation in WW II, the battlecry, avenge Pearl Harbor? Why did were Japanese Americans treated a bit different then Germans or Italians, the anger over Pearl Harbor.Point is, does not matter who you are.You can be the most calm, collected "don't take a dump without a plan" Soviet but the motive of revenge can make you do things you may not normally do.

Means: While Soviets sub of the time were not the most advanced, they were still a threat and with right information, skilled Captain and crew and some luck, they could do it.Hell less advanced subs in WW II found other submarines and sank them, one even did it submerged.

Opportunity: Some reports say convicted Spy John Walker relayed information on the Scorpions return etc and Soviets knew where they would be, they had the opportunity or if they just detected the submarine snooping around soviet vessels in the Azores area, some hotheaded lower level Commander bent on revenge ordered the Captain of said submarine to "defend" and the Soviet sub got lucky.The Soviets knowing it could not be proved due to the depths etc, covered it up and denied knowing anything about it.Possible? absolutely. Again revenge is a powerful motive.Both sides knew neither of us would go to war over one submarine, esp when it could not really prove what happened then or now.

Now many of other theories are possible of course but I tend to believe a Soviet sub, in the midst of the cold war, with tensions high, attacked the US sub because they could and knew it.Maybe it was nothing as sinister as put forward, perhaps they were worried and fired, maybe an accident but it was covered up.We will never know, but theories make sense.

The torpedo battery explosion doesnt make sense to me because Dr Ballards survey showed a bow that was intact, too intact even for a low order detonation.

The bow was intact, the stern collpased in telescope effect and the midships area was gone, kind of like if a torpedo hit it perhaps?

We will never really know until everything is declassified, hopefully one day we and more importantly, the families of those loss will.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

We will never really know until everything is declassified, hopefully one day we and more importantly, the families of those loss will.

You have a lot of energy focused on this sinking of a US Navy nuclear fast attack submarine.

You have the seed thought of an evil plot against the USN SSN

You have tickeled us with what you think ... this is good in a way.

I hope you listen to the good friendly advice that has been given in opposition to your theory.

On a subject of this nature I would not lie or fudge a story for you

I was there the day she (Scorpion) came in, for reasons I do not know, to the sub base in Rota, Spain. I had just finished my first boomer patrol on the USS Ethan Allen SSBN 608 blue crew in May 1968.

We usually stayed on the tender when we change commands on boomers with two crews. Turning the boat over in about three days or so.

Anyway I was leaning on the rail of the submairne tender when she came in for a quick stop on the starboard side of the tender with the stern tied to the pier. Boomers on the port side of the tender to seperate us ... we could'e talked to them like normal sailors if they had been rafted up or something, but they had a different job than our milk runs.

Get the picture ... we saw her come in of course boats don't display names and numbers it was weeks later after we had already flown home for our three months off. When your off you have no access to secret materials.

No google in 68 lol the only way you get anything is by scuttlebutt. First talk was that they had flunked some king of reactor testing the nuc's were in trouble is all I know.

But I was one of the last men to see her, sad especially when it's your job.

As for your theory ... I could play into it real easy knowing where the Russians were hiding and waiting for us as soon as we would leave Rota.

Sometimes we would go out (no more Rota, right) and cruise for days to make sure no one was following us and then find a nice big fat tanker to slip underneath and hide in all of the noise she was making just feet from the top of our heads. I was in sonar, but everyone onboard could hear the slow blades of a tanker right above.

They were there waiting for us on the other side ... Britsh ASW planes would scan the area for us and report anything they saw. which usually consisted of russian foxtrots and whiskey class boats that had to snorkle.

Yep, they were there, but did they sink the Scorpion?

I don't think so ... any proof of this even if it was ultra top secret would have been cocktail talk for the men with gold dolphins and I gurantee you the men I knew and served with would have found a way to get even with or without the top brass permission.

On the good side of accidents of this nature came fail-safe a procedure that has saved many lives. I am out of breath in this heat and need to rest now.

You take care now and if you want to get mad about the Soviet Union doing something ... wonder about all of those missing pilots during the Vietnam war that may have been transported to mother land Russia to gleam any knowledge they had and then were elimanted by some say throats being cut.

I'll back you on that one

[TLAM Strike]

Maybe the Soviets sank the Scorpion in retaliation for what the USS McKean did to them...