Korean War air combat.

nikimcbee · 07-18-10, 04:04 PM

This is one of my favorite aviation history subjects, and I've read several books regarding the Soviet pilots. The funny thing regarding this whole subject, is that both sides seem to brush off their own losses. both sides were claiming pretty high kill ratios. I wonder if most of the US kills were against Chinese fighters? It seems like the Russians liked to use them as the "bait"

for the US pilots. But also, the Russians had a wider variety of planes that they were engaging. So I can see how their kill tallies would be high. I think it would be accurate to see or hear from the Chinese records.

Quote:

Claims

The numbers shown above, and used throughout, are claims, and are almost certainly in excess of the actual number of MiGs downed. During the war the USAF pilots claimed over 800 enemy planes. Postwar research revised that figure downward to 379, which closely matches the admitted Russian losses of 345. The Air Force has not disclosed, perhaps does not fully know, which pilot claims to revise, so the contemporary numbers stand, although, as in all claims for aerial victories, the claims exceed the other side's documented losses.
Adjusted Claims per Soviet Data

In the years since the breakup of the old Soviet Union, records relating to the Korean War have come to light. Aviation history researchers like Cookie Sewall and Diego Zampini have pored over these records and have been able to correlate Soviet records of specific aerial battles on specific dates, and thus documented certain over-claims by the USAF pilots. As noted above, over-claims have occurred in all wars and amongst all combatant nations. John Lundstrom similarly researched American overclaims versus Japanese air forces in WW2.
The adjusted claims shown here in no way detract from the heroic accomplishments of the aces. In any historical research, accuracy is all-important; without striving for accuracy (within the limits of resources, documents, archaelogical evidence, etc.) it is not history, it is merely story-telling.
The "Adjusted Claims" column represents a work in progress. As no Chinese archives have been opened up at this time, only USAF claims against Russian air forces have been reviewed. (In other words, the claims against Chinese air forces are counted here, without any challenge.) I hope to provide more documentation, identifying the dates and circumstances of the reduced claims. The "n.a" simply means that I have no information about any adjustments for that pilot; the USAF number should stand.

Russia:
http://www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html

US:
http://www.acepilots.com/korea_aces.html

STEED · 07-19-10, 09:09 AM

Did anyone note this year marks the 60th anniversary of the start of the Korean War?

The Forgotten War.

Oberon · 07-19-10, 09:14 AM

Ironic we came very close to having a remake this year too.

F-86 Sabre...I have a soft spot for them.

As for hearing from Chinese records, I should imagine, given the human waves and the likelihood of staggering losses, the records have been heavily buried so that the public doesn't find out. Bad for morale and all that.

Raptor1 · 07-19-10, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Ironic we came very close to having a remake this year too.

F-86 Sabre...I have a soft spot for them.

As for hearing from Chinese records, I should imagine, given the human waves and the likelihood of staggering losses, the records have been heavily buried so that the public doesn't find out. Bad for morale and all that.

I'm not sure the Chinese casualties are as bad as sometimes made out to be. The Chinese troops that fought in Korea were mostly veterens of the Chinese Civil War and they used infiltration and encirclement tactics which proved, especially at the end of 1950, very effective at destroying and throwing back the UN forces despite the Chinese disadvantage in air power and heavy weapons.

Jimbuna · 07-19-10, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Ironic we came very close to having a remake this year too.

F-86 Sabre...I have a soft spot for them.

As for hearing from Chinese records, I should imagine, given the human waves and the likelihood of staggering losses, the records have been heavily buried so that the public doesn't find out. Bad for morale and all that.

That is most probably the case....and yes, a beautiful aircraft.

nikimcbee · 07-19-10, 10:13 AM

Great post Jim!

I think it would be cool/interesting to make a movie about the Russian pilots there, from their perspective. All of their involvement there was supposed to be top secret.

07-19-10, 10:26 AM

The Korean Police Action was a United Nation's sanctioned effort that couldn't be called a war. It did however allow future US presidents to act without congressional approval to commit US forces. As political cover the congress approved the 'War Powers Act' of 1973, which is why the power of the presidency is what it is today. The UN and congress.

TLAM Strike · 07-19-10, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

That is most probably the case....and yes, a beautiful aircraft.

What is the yellow one with the red star? Yugoslavia?

Raptor1 · 07-19-10, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

What is the yellow one with the red star? Yugoslavia?

Yes, it is

Sailor Steve · 07-20-10, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

That is most probably the case....and yes, a beautiful aircraft.

A product of the same folks who brought us the P-51 Mustang.

The Korean War was also the first airwar that suffered from planning by people far from the front. US Command was in Japan, and it showed. You would have F-80s, F-84s and F-9-F Panthers doing ground attack with Mustangs and Corsairs as top cover. Yes, that's jets doing the ground-pounding and the older "prop-jobs" as we called them when I was a kid, trying to take on the MiGs.

In World War 2 it could be doubly dangerous for a fighter pilot, because a P-51 head-on at 300 yards looks very much like a Bf-109 at 200 yards, and bomber gunners tended to shoot at both. In Korea they actually assigned straight-winged F-84s as close escort for the B-29s, with F-86s flying high cover. They were told to not chase the MiGs through the formations, because the B-29 gunners were told to shoot at anything with swept wings.

Two Korea airwar movies you should not miss.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046806/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051750/

Too much schmaltz and not enough flying in both films, but what is there makes them both worth a look.

Except for Platapus, who will hate The Hunters, as it's Crash Dive with airplanes.

Platapus · 07-21-10, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Except for Platapus, who will hate The Hunters, as it's Crash Dive with airplanes.

The movie "The Hunters" is way better than Crash Dive.

Sailor Steve · 07-19-10, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED

Did anyone note this year marks the 60th anniversary of the start of the Korean War?

The Forgotten War.

No. I forgot.

07-19-10, 09:09 AM	#2
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	Did anyone note this year marks the 60th anniversary of the start of the Korean War? The Forgotten War. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

07-19-10, 10:13 AM	#6
nikimcbee Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Patroling the Slot. Posts: 17,952 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Great post Jim! I think it would be cool/interesting to make a movie about the Russian pilots there, from their perspective. All of their involvement there was supposed to be top secret. __________________

07-19-10, 09:14 AM	#3
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Ironic we came very close to having a remake this year too. F-86 Sabre...I have a soft spot for them. As for hearing from Chinese records, I should imagine, given the human waves and the likelihood of staggering losses, the records have been heavily buried so that the public doesn't find out. Bad for morale and all that.

07-19-10, 10:26 AM	#7
The Third Man Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	The Korean Police Action was a United Nation's sanctioned effort that couldn't be called a war. It did however allow future US presidents to act without congressional approval to commit US forces. As political cover the congress approved the 'War Powers Act' of 1973, which is why the power of the presidency is what it is today. The UN and congress.