The Mars Colony

[Oberon]

Thread music:

I hope I see the first men or women (or both) on Mars in my lifetime although I suspect that they will be Chinese.

Then, I'll just wait to see if they get Heat Rayed or not...


In all seriousness though, I don't hold out much hope for space programs in the west for the next two or three decades. The current economic climate and the focus towards climate change means that anything outside of the planet takes a back seat. Look at the shuttle program for example.

Such a shame, but I guess it makes a bit of sense for humanity to try and solve its problems on one planet before it starts messing with another, lest we become a race of space locusts, wrecking one planet after another in an attempt to keep our civilisation alive.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Such a shame, but I guess it makes a bit of sense for humanity to try and solve its problems on one planet before it starts messing with another, lest we become a race of space locusts, wrecking one planet after another in an attempt to keep our civilisation alive.

Yeah, maybe we'll find some blue cat-people and bulldoze their trees to get their unobtainium

No need to worry, Oberon. It is highly unlikely that people will ever manage to destroy this planet, let alone another one. IMO, most people have skewed perception of just how these things work, generally because they buy into alarmist environmental arguments that often have very little to do with the environment. Know what I mean?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Yeah, maybe we'll find some blue cat-people and bulldoze their trees to get their unobtainium

No need to worry, Oberon. It is highly unlikely that people will ever manage to destroy this planet, let alone another one. IMO, most people have skewed perception of just how these things work, generally because they buy into alarmist environmental arguments that often have very little to do with the environment. Know what I mean?

"You ain't in Kansas anymaar..."

Yeah, I'm with Carling, it's impossible to kill this planet, well certainly at our primitive level of technology, but we can certainly make our lives on it uncomfortable...well, for some people anyway.
I'm more concerned about resource shortages than I am climate change if I'm honest, but there's not a great deal one can do about it, not as a singular being and certainly not in the planets fractured socio-political state.
I often do ponder how mankind would face a large scale hostile extraterrestrial event, be it an asteroid or an alien. Would the planets governments band together to try to combat it or would they all just work to further their own objectives. Sometimes mankind can be so brilliant...and yet at other times it can be so dumb.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Oberon

"You ain't in Kansas anymaar..."

Yeah, I'm with Carling, it's impossible to kill this planet, well certainly at our primitive level of technology, but we can certainly make our lives on it uncomfortable...well, for some people anyway.

People make their lives uncomfortable for themselves, nothing we can do about that. The poorest, most wretched nations in the world are the way they are because they just refuse to trade freely. Actually, that's not entirely accurate. Some nations want to trade freely but Western nations keep them out with tariffs and quotas. We should definitely do something about that.

I'm more concerned about resource shortages than I am climate change if I'm honest, but there's not a great deal one can do about it, not as a singular being and certainly not in the planets fractured socio-political state.

Define "fractured". I'm of the firm belief that order generated without design will far outstrip the plans that men consciously contrive. I think it's great that there are billions of individuals on this planet with different beliefs and needs and wants and ideologies, so long as they don't try to force them upon others. Our differences are what make us so successful. We trade and commune and work because of our differences. Where we are permitted, a million of us working to accomplish seperate ends can build a society in a matter of days. Where we are not permitted, a million of us working together can build a dam or something, in like, 5 years. Ask Western China.

I often do ponder how mankind would face a large scale hostile extraterrestrial event, be it an asteroid or an alien. Would the planets governments band together to try to combat it or would they all just work to further their own objectives. Sometimes mankind can be so brilliant...and yet at other times it can be so dumb.

I think you already know the answer to that. Nothing unites people like an external threat. In the case of a hostile extraterrestrial event, you can bet that the whole planet would be out for alien blood.

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

One of my favorite SG:A bits.

What's SG:A? Stargate.. something? I'm not current on any sci-fi shows other than Firefly.



edit- Thanks krashkart! Now I just need to go find out what Stargate has to do with Atlantis. I hope it has submarines

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

What's SG:A? Stargate.. something? I'm not current on any sci-fi shows other than Firefly.

Stargate Atlantis

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

What's SG:A? Stargate.. something? I'm not current on any sci-fi shows other than Firefly.

So the Lcpl is a Browncoat! All your Libertarian ranting suddenly makes sense...

Oh yea


For Firefly.

...I'm a Jayne Hat wearing Browncoat too!

Now I just need to go find out what Stargate has to do with Atlantis. I hope it has submarines

Check out Episode 214 "Grace Under Pressure" and 318 "Submersion".

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

So the Lcpl is a Browncoat! All your Libertarian ranting suddenly makes sense...

Oh yea

Oh yeah!
Steve got me started on it, now I can't stop watching it over and over. And over.

Check out Episode 214 "Grace Under Pressure" and 318 "Submersion".

I'll see if I can't find it on hulu after I get done moving. Man, I hate moving.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Oh yeah!

OH YEAH!!

Damn it now look what we did...

Great going there Lcpl...

[Oberon]

People make their lives uncomfortable for themselves, nothing we can do about that. The poorest, most wretched nations in the world are the way they are because they just refuse to trade freely. Actually, that's not entirely accurate. Some nations want to trade freely but Western nations keep them out with tariffs and quotas. We should definitely do something about that.

True, true, I cannot deny this, there are certainly quite a few nations out there who are pretty good at shooting themselves in the foot, Zimbabwe and the DPRK come immediately to mind. Likewise there are some who would do more if they had more to do it with, sorting the wheat from the chaff is the foreign aid departments job and I'm glad its not mine. Of course, there is the risk that nations will come to exist wholly on foreign aid and never walk on their own two feet, I think this is another problem which is prevalent in some countries, particularly in Africa.
However, one problem which keeps cropping up in my mind is the birth rates and death rates and the widening gap between the two. Don't get me wrong, it's lovely to have your friends and family around for longer (in most cases) however at the same time there is an extra burden on resources, particularly in an aging population as Europe is finding out now. So, that takes resources from other areas and puts it into caring for the elderly, and that's good...but then you've got to encourage people to have babies to your population growth from going negative (and your tax income with it) so you've got to put more resources into child care...because you need your parents to keep working to keep the economy going, so that's more resources in...and that's just things like financial and work hours. When you factor in food supplies and water supplies as well, then things start getting a bit tighter.
What do I think it will mean? Well...quite simply the richer nations will continue on as normal but with higher food prices and the poorer nations will have mass famines. So, not much change there.
Then of course, there's the possibility of Peak Oil...I don't know precisely where to stand on that, but it's going to run out at some point, and that won't be such a great time if we haven't developed alternatives to an extent that they can be phased in as crude oil is phased out.

Define "fractured". I'm of the firm belief that order generated without design will far outstrip the plans that men consciously contrive. I think it's great that there are billions of individuals on this planet with different beliefs and needs and wants and ideologies, so long as they don't try to force them upon others. Our differences are what make us so successful. We trade and commune and work because of our differences. Where we are permitted, a million of us working to accomplish seperate ends can build a society in a matter of days. Where we are not permitted, a million of us working together can build a dam or something, in like, 5 years. Ask Western China.

Our differences make us so successful and also what make us so conflicted. Of course, this is inevitable on a planet where the fittest survive at the expense of the unfit, however it can also slow things down in bureaucracy and it can lead to corruption due to each man trying to profit himself over others.

I'm no communist, I used to be quite left, but I'm more central now because I've seen how communism falls apart when exposed to reality, but some parts of intense competition is damaging whilst the others are indeed beneficial.

I think you already know the answer to that. Nothing unites people like an external threat. In the case of a hostile extraterrestrial event, you can bet that the whole planet would be out for alien blood.

True...although if they were smart enough they'd play us off against each other.

What's SG:A? Stargate.. something? I'm not current on any sci-fi shows other than Firefly.

I'll be in my bunk.



I...I started so well in typing this but it's kind of faltered out. I blame the weather...too friggin hot for this islander, where's that fabled British rain gone? But I do see where you're coming from UnderseaLcpl, but you cannot deny that mankind can be very shortsighted...but thankfully, hopefully, now we can see a change with people thinking more about their actions and how they will effect their children, be it economically or be it environmentally.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

...It is highly unlikely that people will ever manage to destroy this planet, let alone another one.

One of my favorite SG:A bits.

Col. Shepperd: What are you working on anyway?
Col. Shepperd: You'll be surprised to hear that removing a planet from the database is actually a lot of work.
Col. Shepperd: I thought you'd be pretty good at that by now.
Dr. Mckay: You just can't resist bringing up the fact that I once accidentally destroyed a couple of planets, can you?
Col. Shepperd: It was an entire solar system.
Dr. Mckay: You want to do the honors?
Col. Shepperd: No, you go ahead.
Dr. Mckay: All right, M7R-227, you were a constant pain in the ass. It's good to see you go.
>Mckay presses button and planet vanishes<
Col. Shepperd: If only it was that easy in real life.
Dr. Mckay: Area 51 is working on it.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Such a shame, but I guess it makes a bit of sense for humanity to try and solve its problems on one planet before it starts messing with another, lest we become a race of space locusts, wrecking one planet after another in an attempt to keep our civilisation alive.

I have to disagree with you on this Oberon. If its true that entropy is going to slowly destroy the universe then I think we should go out and consume as much resources as possible and "empire build". Spread, propagate and consume because somewhere in a vast Human Empire someone might discover a way out and we might have the resources to accomplish it.

Every planet we colonize or space habitat we build is like a mini-"Foundation" dedicated to this effort.

[Skybird]

I think we will have deleted ourselves long before the term "space colony" and "stellar empire" could start to make sense for us. "Stellar sailors" we want to see ourselves as? Right now we are not more than a kid on the beach, throwing little stones at the waves, and running away when they roll up the beach, frightened.

And before entropy - if it turns out to bbe true - ever could make a difference for mankind's ongoing existence in this universe, many billion more years must go by. To make entropy an argument why we should embark on conquering space, is a bit far fetched, for my taste.

the truth is much more profane, I fear: we have depleted out ressources in reach of us long before we could even be dreaming of colonizing otger pkanets to a degree that it would a difference for the evolutionary path of mankind. Our technological and high civilisation will fall, leaving future generations to live on the level of small tribes living by the ways of hunters and gatherers again.

Actually, it might even be a good thing for life on Earth if we do not start to pump ressources from other stellar objects into the system of earth'S planetosphere. it would change balances between substances and chemical agtns to a degree beyond that level that would be possible if we only deal with what is available to us on this planet. And if we even cannot reach a consenus on how our current modern messing-ups of the biosphere and ecosphere is creating what effect for Earth, and if we even cannot reliably calculate the longterm consequences of our modern playing around with the elem,nts of the pplanetosphere we already hav ein reach right here on Earth - how much more unable must we be to reliably forsee how it could change Earth's fate if we start to bring even more for example carbon from extraterrestrial sources into the internal Earth-based cycle of chemical interaction. - Not that we are close to being able to industrially exploit ressources on the moon in large scale.

Optimism is one thing. Fantasizing is a different one. and this talking of space colonization and stellar empires and industrial exploitation of foreign stellar objects, to me is currently just - nothing. We even cannot reliably opertae a simple space sation without running into problems time and again, a space station that is not even a space staion becasue it is still embedde din the upper layers of earth's atmopshere.

That far out into space we reach with our "space travelling" ...!

And it is very liekly, that even in a most optimal future setting, we wpuld not reach out into space purselves, but send robots and probe droids, or discover other forms of travelling, via mind and spirit and mental projection or whatever.

Many cosmologists, btw, expect that if there are any civilisations out there running space travel programs successfully, will be civilisation that have left any animalistic, biology-dependant staes of life behind, and will be - as we would see it - robot civilisations, by that defeating the monumental problems of time and ageing when travelling huge distances like between stars, and alos deleting the high vuolnerability of biologic life to chnages in the enviuronmentl variables. maybe higher biologic life forms simply are not robut eniough to enable them for long-lasting space travels that would be needed to run space travels and empires indeed.

I also want to remind you that plkanet Eaerth is located in those 10% of our galaxy that is the youngest 10% of this galaxy alltpgether - 90% of the space and in this galaxy is millions of years older than the 10% we are embedded in. That means that we must expect most intelligent life out there to be eons older than we are, and thus being of higher developement levels and knowldge and ability, than we are. the difference probably is such that not only "their" abilities wopuld appear like magic to us - mor elieklöy is that we would not even be capable to recignise these higher intellegnes as what they are: higher intelligent life forms (like the ant does not realise the intellkictual superiority of man).

If somebody thinks we men from planet Terra could storm into space and make our way into this galaxy's history with flying banners and sounding fanfares, then this is most probably not matching reality. we more likely compare to this galaxy's junior class in kindergarten, and maybe we have been put under quarantine because we promise to annoy the adults with our noise and trouble-making.

[Platapus]

"Human thought is so primitive it's looked upon as an infectious disease in some of the better galaxies. That kind of makes you proud, doesn't it? huh?"

[Oberon]

"The problem is, of course, the Humans, they have developed primitive intelligence, yet their society is structured around perpetual conquest and conflict..."

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I think we will have deleted ourselves long before the term "space colony" and "stellar empire" could start to make sense for us. "Stellar sailors" we want to see ourselves as? Right now we are not more than a kid on the beach, throwing little stones at the waves, and running away when they roll up the beach, frightened.

People traveled the Pacific in canoes and colonized Australia and many islands. The primitive slow boat approach has the advantage of being less noticeable to other civilizations and that by the time it arives at its destination any civilization there has died out.

Actually, it might even be a good thing for life on Earth if we do not start to pump ressources from other stellar objects into the system of earth'S planetosphere. it would change balances between substances and chemical agtns to a degree beyond that level that would be possible if we only deal with what is available to us on this planet. And if we even cannot reach a consenus on how our current modern messing-ups of the biosphere and ecosphere is creating what effect for Earth, and if we even cannot reliably calculate the longterm consequences of our modern playing around with the elem,nts of the pplanetosphere we already hav ein reach right here on Earth - how much more unable must we be to reliably forsee how it could change Earth's fate if we start to bring even more for example carbon from extraterrestrial sources into the internal Earth-based cycle of chemical interaction. - Not that we are close to being able to industrially exploit ressources on the moon in large scale.

Millions of tons of extraterrestrial material fall on the Earth every day. Its believed that the early amino acids the joined together to form the first string of protein and then on to be the first life on Earth were brought here on comets.

Optimism is one thing. Fantasizing is a different one. and this talking of space colonization and stellar empires and industrial exploitation of foreign stellar objects, to me is currently just - nothing. We even cannot reliably opertae a simple space sation without running into problems time and again, a space station that is not even a space staion becasue it is still embedde din the upper layers of earth's atmopshere.

What we got running and what we are capable of are two different things. If politics had not killed Project Orion the solar system would be ours.

And it is very liekly, that even in a most optimal future setting, we wpuld not reach out into space purselves, but send robots and probe droids, or discover other forms of travelling, via mind and spirit and mental projection or whatever.

I agree with using robot probes (especially Von Neumann Probes) to explore and colonize space. When we arrive at that level of technological advance (its really not that far away) there is nothing preventing the designers of such probes from using them to seed human life on the worlds they visit.

Many cosmologists, btw, expect that if there are any civilisations out there running space travel programs successfully, will be civilisation that have left any animalistic, biology-dependant staes of life behind, and will be - as we would see it - robot civilisations, by that defeating the monumental problems of time and ageing when travelling huge distances like between stars, and alos deleting the high vuolnerability of biologic life to chnages in the enviuronmentl variables. maybe higher biologic life forms simply are not robut eniough to enable them for long-lasting space travels that would be needed to run space travels and empires indeed.

I also want to remind you that plkanet Eaerth is located in those 10% of our galaxy that is the youngest 10% of this galaxy alltpgether - 90% of the space and in this galaxy is millions of years older than the 10% we are embedded in. That means that we must expect most intelligent life out there to be eons older than we are, and thus being of higher developement levels and knowldge and ability, than we are. the difference probably is such that not only "their" abilities wopuld appear like magic to us - mor elieklöy is that we would not even be capable to recignise these higher intellegnes as what they are: higher intelligent life forms (like the ant does not realise the intellkictual superiority of man).

And its also possible that those civilization have long since died out. The lack of signals and visible signs of (highly advanced) life in the MW tend to support this.

If somebody thinks we men from planet Terra could storm into space and make our way into this galaxy's history with flying banners and sounding fanfares, then this is most probably not matching reality. we more likely compare to this galaxy's junior class in kindergarten, and maybe we have been put under quarantine because we promise to annoy the adults with our noise and trouble-making.

Then again we could be like a virus, once we escape confinement we slowly consume the host and spread until all is consumed, then we go dormant- like Spanish Flu.