Ranking of U.S. Presidents by historians

[Moeceefus]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

OK, let's start over. I already eliminated slavery as a primary motivation for the North's war against the South.

Have you read Jefferson Davis' own book, "The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government" ?

If only this line from The Declaration of Independence was followed to the letter to begin with, this wouldn't be an issue, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Another good point. Davis was a lousy president. However, you may be interested in this quote from General Lee at a public meeting in Texas, spoken to a confidant: (abridged, I can't find the page)
"Had I known what those people (Lee's preferred term for Yanks) would do to our nation, I would have rather died with my men at Appamattox."

“Governor, if I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no sir, not by me. Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand.”
General Robert E. Lee, August 1870 to Governor Stockdale of Texas.

Here are some other interesting Lee quotes.

"The war... was an unnecessary condition of affairs, and might have been avoided if forebearance and wisdom had been practiced on both sides."

"So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained. "

"They do not know what they say. If it came to a conflict of arms, the war will last at least four years. Northern politicians will not appreciate the determination and pluck of the South, and Southern politicians do not appreciate the numbers, resources, and patient perseverance of the North. Both sides forget that we are all Americans. I foresee that our country will pass through a terrible ordeal, a necessary expiation, perhaps, for our national sins."

"The gentleman does not needlessly and unnecessarily remind an offender of a wrong he may have committed against him. He can not only forgive; he can forget; and he strives for that nobleness of self and mildness of character which imparts sufficient strength to let the past be put the past."

[tater]

Locking up people based on surname certainly puts FDR in the lower end of civil liberties, does it not? US support for various chinese forces during the war is also pretty scary when you srat looking at what we got for our effort/money—they did not fight the japs, they fought other chinese, to the tune of some pretty large-scale democide (the various US service branches had their own intel ops in addition to the new OSS, in central China it was actually of all things the USN that was involved. Got pretty sketchy, actually, with the USN funding nationalist chinese secret service forces that mostly murdered internal political enemies.

That's aside from using the FBI to spy on political enemies, etc (standard practice, Truman did the same). Some of us might argue that starting social security was a major attack on liberty as well.

[UnderseaLcpl]

@Moceefus - thanks for finding the quote I couldn't find, and the other ones. And no, I have not read Davis' book, but I plan on adding it and a good deal of other books to my collection when I have the funds for it.

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

In summary, the New Deal's monetary policies ended the Great Depression

That's not what your source says, and that's not what conventional economic wisdom says, either. Your source (economic library) cites many of the failures of the New Deal and supports the claim that it exacerbated the Depression, rather than rectifying it. It also casts doubt on your figures for GDP and employment. This is all in the last half of the document.

Furthermore, while I have no doubt that FDR was little better than Lincoln when it came to civil liberties, you make no mention of his attempt to pack the Supreme Court. That, in conjunction with his political control of Congress, and his adamant refusal to leave office, makes him the closest thing to a dictator this nation has ever had. Sorry, but he's staying on my "Worst Presidents" list.

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

That's not what your source says,

I cited more than one source...

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

and that's not what conventional economic wisdom says, either.

As a matter of opinion, you mean.

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Your source (economic library) cites many of the failures of the New Deal and supports the claim that it exacerbated the Depression, rather than rectifying it.

Though it proves my point: that doubling the fixed exchange rate for the dollar relative to gold helped to stabilize and indeed benefit the economy by acting as a monetary stimulus thusly leading to large amounts of gold flowing into the United States. Twice as many dollars could therein be purchased. That supported bank deposits and increased bank willingness to lend, encouraging investments to be made. This lending led to a huge increase in the currency supply, which pushed against price deflation and increased consumption, thus helping to end the Great Depression.

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

It also casts doubt on your figures for GDP and employment. This is all in the last half of the document.

Mr. Smiley is accurate on some things, not so much on others, with my particular reason for using this viewpoint article being its excellent summary of the standard, which can be substantiated from the following source:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/boardd...22/default.htm

Moreover, you've switched that up: my figures for GDP and employment cast doubt on his article, which does not cite any sources. My figures, on the otherhand, DO have sources. This can (and does) furthermore serve to confirm my point that, he is accurate on some things, in conjunction with the Federal Reserve citation above, not so much on others (which stresses why it's so important to look around ).

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Furthermore, while I have no doubt that FDR was little better than Lincoln when it came to civil liberties, you make no mention of his attempt to pack the Supreme Court.

On the concernancy of civil liberties, we are arguing on what presidents did do, not what they tried to do. His Judiciary Reorganization Bill did not pass and did not come anywhere close to passing in Congress. Not that this was going to do anything terrible to the Supreme Court anyway. For those who aren't aware, the only real thing the integration of it into a law would have done would have been to limit the ages of the justices. Roosevelt felt there were too many elderly justices and that they could not perform their duties adequately (funnily enough, this is exactly what we have been seeing these past few years). For each justice who did not retire and stayed active to 70 and 1/2 years of age, a new justice(s) would be added (preferably, of a younger age), until the respective justice(s) died. Naturally, the justices, and indeed many of the politicians who had gained connections as lawyers from working with the justices opposed the plan, but eventually it evened itself out when two of the Supreme Court's members died, and Roosevelt was able to replace them with younger substitutes, who luckily agreed with many of his policies.

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/679281

But again, fact is the bill never passed. So it's really pointless to bring it into this discussion.

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

That, in conjunction with his political control of Congress,

What is that even supposed to mean? "Political control of Congress"? You mean as in having a Democratic majority to support him on his policies (which they did not, for the record, support him on the Judiciary Reorganization Bill) or as in being a skilled politician who knew how to use Congress to actually get it to do something? (The latter, of which, was true, before, during, and shortly after the Hoover Administration- particularly towards the subject of the Great Depression as Hoover's Conservative leanings led him to favor a Trickle-Down Economy to fix the horrid status the country was in; this is precisely why he gets my vote as being one of the worst presidents in the United States' history).

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

and his adamant refusal to leave office,

Presidents LONG before Roosevelt were allowed to remain in office for as long as they wished. The two-full terms thing was only done with a few presidents prior to him: Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Grant, and Wilson (2,922 days for each man)- not counting Cleveland as he ran three times and served nonconsecutively (though it did amount to 2,922 days for him, in the end of it all). It wasn't until after he died that Truman approved the 22nd Amendment.

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

makes him the closest thing to a dictator this nation has ever had.

Not really, as he never did act unconstitutionally nor did he assume total control of the country during the Second World War. He was no better and no worse than Lincoln was, even considering the times and circumstances.

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Sorry, but he's staying on my "Worst Presidents" list.

Well he's been ranked as the best president since 1982 in each statistical research session the Siena Research Institute has launched.

http://www.siena.edu/uploadedfiles/h...2010_final.pdf

And consistently as one of the better presidents in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori..._United_States

Think we can all agree on who's one of the worst...

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=iV4lJr6AhJA&feature=related

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Moeceefus

Here are some other interesting Lee quotes.


"They do not know what they say. If it came to a conflict of arms, the war will last at least four years. Northern politicians will not appreciate the determination and pluck of the South, and Southern politicians do not appreciate the numbers, resources, and patient perseverance of the North. Both sides forget that we are all Americans. I foresee that our country will pass through a terrible ordeal, a necessary expiation, perhaps, for our national sins."

wise words indeed.

and my favorite Lee quote:

"It is well that war is so terrible - otherwise we would grow too fond of it. "

spoken after the battle (or rather massacre) at Fredericksburg, dec. 13, 1862. (2,000 dead, 15,000 wounded)