Question re: "ping"

[Buck_O]

I was in a quick mission playing RA 1.1, my boat a Seawolf doing a ASW area search. I was somewhat surprised to be sunk w/out warning by a torp from a Type 209. ( not the fact as to the type of boat, but the fact that I had no warning at all that it was launched, guided and hit me)
I don't understand, I thought that one can hear the "ping" of a torp as it goes active on your boat?
I understood that a torp can be guided passively to a target but for it to detonate the weapon has to go active on the target?

Perhaps I need to read up more on what is meant by presets on the weapon concerning active/passive guidance.

[TLAM Strike]

Torpedoes have contact and magnetic fuses to detonate. The active or passive sonar simply allows the torpedo to get in to the zone in which its warhead will effect the target or to guide it on a collision course with the target. A passive homing torpedo would follow the noise its locked on to towards it source (the screw or reactor coolant pumps) then hit it detonating the torpedo since normally against submarines a contact detonator is used.

[goldorak]

The active intercept in RA has a dead zone (this is not a bug, its a concious decision on the part of the modders).
So even if an active torpedo came up your tail you wouldn't hear its pings.

The torpedo in the water message in RA has been profoundly modified. Now you only get the message when the torpedo is actually pretty near your sub. Something around 3 nm. People bitched and moaned in the default game that you could get TIW messages from launches tens of nm away, and this was a realism issue that finally has been cured. You also get alerts when subrocs are launched !!! if they are not too far away. On the other hand you don't get alerts from asrocs begin launched, only TIW when they enter the water near your position.

[NFunky]

Hmm, I would think that even in RA the Seawolf would be able to get a TIW at longer than 3 nm as long as the fish wasn't in the towed array baffles. Since it sounds like it was in the active intercept baffles, I'm sure the TA would have picked it up. Torpedoes are loud. Even with the quitest engine, a torpedo moves through the water at 40+ knots and makes a racket.

[Buck_O]

thanks TLAM & Goldorak

Perhaps you could help me out with a few more things that have been bothering me.

I was in a simple mission that I created to sharpen my TMA skills. while I was waiting to get in range and pick up contact off my primary target, I ran out a uuv to see how it worked.

I was not able to get a hit on it(uuv) with any of my passive sonar. At about 100yrds out there was a sign of it in NB search display, but nothing in the waterfall. I had the uuv running at 4 knts. Is this how its modeled? Its just going so slow that I can't pick it up?

Also, I was baffled a little because the unit picked up a contact opposite of my position and I could not pick up any contacts at all at this point..what I mean by this was that the Nav map was updated with a new contact and a yellow line going from contact to the uuv. the DDI on the Nav map didn't indicate the source of the contact( is this the way contacts are collected with uuv?)
I must confess its been a while since I used a uuv, so I am very ignorant with regards to them.
The unit also seemed to run out prematurely,(should go 37 min according to manual) but since I didn't time it I can not verify this. It updated the only contact I had at the time and immediately disappeared.
I am beginning to think that perhaps I have a faulty install, cause some of these behaveiors just cant be part of the mod(maybe im wrong)

On install I had a hard time following instructions ( i'm slow in the brain) So what I did is I unpacked the first RAR file and placed all its contents in my DW root directory. Then I placed the other 3 RAR files (still packed) in the DW root directory too. Then I Launch Install_RA_OPFOR_DWX1_1.bat file.
I hope this was the right way, enlighten me if not.

anyway sorry for so much info, just trying to figure this all out, I love the game! & thanks much for all your work.

[NFunky]

Well, lets see...

The UUV being very quiet makes sense. It's a modern submersible running on a battery powered screw at 4 kts so it had better be quiet. The fact that it picked up a contact you hadn't is odd though. Were you scanning your towed array with the narrowband display? Very quiet/distant contacts usually only show up on narrowband and only as a thin black line in the lowest frequency range, so maybe you just missed it (happens to me in pretty much every scenario I play US boats). I also find it odd that your UUV was traveling at 4 kts. There must have been a current cause the UUV is supposed to run at 5 kts for 30 minutes, giving it a range of 2.5 nm. In this way, it is a somewhat limited piece of hardware, but useful nonetheless. I would never use it to try to find a contact (unless it involved maneuvering the UUV around an island/underwater mountain), but they are invaluable when prosecuting a target or evading enemy fire.

I'd always recommend a clean reinstall if you suspect something's wrong. RA_OPFOR_DWX1_1 is a multipart archive, so if you have all four files in the DW root directory, you should just be able to unzip the first one and it'll automatically do the rest. Then you just run the .bat file (which takes about a year) and you're good to go. It may not be JGSME friendly, but it's a very user-friendly mod to install.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by NFunky

Hmm, I would think that even in RA the Seawolf would be able to get a TIW at longer than 3 nm as long as the fish wasn't in the towed array baffles. Since it sounds like it was in the active intercept baffles, I'm sure the TA would have picked it up. Torpedoes are loud. Even with the quitest engine, a torpedo moves through the water at 40+ knots and makes a racket.

The TA sonar can of course still pick up a torpedo acustic signature way beyond 3nm. Its just that you won't get the TIW message untill the torpedo is near you. That means that you have to pay a lot of attention at whats going on on sonar and can't rely exclusively on the TIW message anymore.

[NFunky]

Really? Damn. That's definately going to make manning all the stations even harder than it already is. If you're doing manual TMA, its really hard to devote the amount of time needed in sonar. I depend heavily on active intercept (can be heard from all stations) and TIW messages to survive if I'm tracking multiple contacts.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by NFunky

Really? Damn. That's definately going to make manning all the stations even harder than it already is. If you're doing manual TMA, its really hard to devote the amount of time needed in sonar. I depend heavily on active intercept (can be heard from all stations) and TIW messages to survive if I'm tracking multiple contacts.

Active intercept still works, you just won't hear torpedos at your six.
On the other hand, going against subrocs loaded subs you will thank the RA team for having included an "underwater missile launch" warning.
And this waring you get even if the launch is way beyond 3nm because underwater missile launches are much noiser than torpedo launches.

As for doing manual tma, first you have to learn to descriminate between contacts of interest and other contacts. Then, use all the sensors and that includes in the new subs the photonic mast to gain a tma solution for surface contacts.

For those pesky hostile subs, make informed guesses as to their speed if demon is not available, use waterfall display to deduce the type of los, and use the tma station only every 2 minutes.

Last but not least download the red book from CADC website. It explains how to keep updated the tma solution even when the contact changes course and or speed.

[Buck_O]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Active intercept still works, you just won't hear torpedos at your six.
On the other hand, going against subrocs loaded subs you will thank the RA team for having included an "underwater missile launch" warning.
And this waring you get even if the launch is way beyond 3nm because underwater missile launches are much noiser than torpedo launches.

As for doing manual tma, first you have to learn to descriminate between contacts of interest and other contacts. Then, use all the sensors and that includes in the new subs the photonic mast to gain a tma solution for surface contacts.

For those pesky hostile subs, make informed guesses as to their speed if demon is not available, use waterfall display to deduce the type of los, and use the tma station only every 2 minutes.

Last but not least download the red book from CADC website. It explains how to keep updated the tma solution even when the contact changes course and or speed.

fantastic tips! esp the "red book" im printing it out now as I write. I'm so thankful for the forums, ...so much helpful advice, its a goldmine for knowledge about this sim. My wife walked by my desk and shook her head, seeing the large pile of already printed documents plus the "Red Book" being printed out...
Anyway thanks everyone!!

[NFunky]

Active intercept is important, but only against surface ships really. A good torpedo shot will not start pinging until its very close. I do really enjoy the 'underwater missile launch' message though.

Originally Posted by goldorak

As for doing manual tma, first you have to learn to descriminate between contacts of interest and other contacts. Then, use all the sensors and that includes in the new subs the photonic mast to gain a tma solution for surface contacts.

For those pesky hostile subs, make informed guesses as to their speed if demon is not available, use waterfall display to deduce the type of los, and use the tma station only every 2 minutes.

Last but not least download the red book from CADC website. It explains how to keep updated the tma solution even when the contact changes course and or speed.

Yep, I've read the Red Book, the Blue Book, TACMAN, etc., but it stilll takes almost the full two minutes to adjust the solutions for four different contacts (all contacts of interest). If there are more than four COIs, then it becomes even more time intesive since it requires cycling trackers. Also, if you're trying to identify a narrowband contact, it takes a little while to scroll through the various possibles until you find the right one, but this is a minor issue. It's balancing checking the sonar picture, scanning for new contacts, reassigning trackers to newer/more intersting contacts, merging/splitting/dropping/classifying the right trackers, assessing possible solutions for ALL COIs, trying to acquire BB contacts on faint trackers (for DEMON data), and I'm sure a few other things I forgot. Maybe its because I'm legally blind, but I find I never have and idle moment when I'm in a high contact environment.

I'm using the RA mod right now and I really do miss those TIWs when I'm in a confusing fight, as when I'm doing anything but gazing at the sonar display, they let me know I should stop whatever I'm doing and determine whether any new high-frequency screw noise could be an immediate threat. I absolutely think that you should be able to manually detect a torpedo before you get a TIW, but the 3 nm range seems oddly short. I'm sure a TB-23 could strongly detect an incoming torpedo at 10 nm at least. I wish the TIW could be activated when the fish had at least two strong lines in the towed array.

I can do a competent manual sonar watch when I only have one or two COIs, but in many situations I'm not 100% sure what my COIs are. A quiet sub at moderate range can look a lot like a distant surface ship, especially if hostile forces are under EMCON. I just don't know how you do it all when you have four or more COIs.