Patroling submerged

Armistead · 06-09-10, 08:09 PM

Only time I patrol underwater is to yo you in a S boat since sonar only works dived.

Bubblehead1980 · 06-09-10, 11:36 PM

Was in no way saying anyone had to patrol submerged.Just saying since the pre war tactic of being a slightly mobile minefield, just staying under during day and surfacing at night was very common first couple years of the war, I began to follow the doctrine if playing in 41, 42 and early 43 because it adds to the challenge.Once I get into late 43 and on I stay on surface most of the time as they did in RL. Up to the player of course. One boo boo they made is giving us the TBT from day one of the war, US subs didnt do night surface attacks ( few brave skippers who winged it and did night surface attacks without training) until 43 or so.Again, up to player.

Rockin Robbins · 06-10-10, 04:38 AM

What they don't tell you is that the reason tactics changed wasn't that the captains changed their minds. The ostriches who hid all day were fired and sent to pound sand on the beaches of Japanese infested islands and new blood, who were willing to fight their boats were brought in to get the job done.

The one who made that happen was Admiral Lockwood, who wasn't afraid to make wholesale changes necessary to get some production out of the boats. It wasn't as if they were really safe hiding underwater all day anyway. It wasn't as if changing the plan to surfaced patrol was going to cost more American lives. It was that those sacrifices would actually have some justification when the submarines were producing victory instead of pursuing some pipe dream of just trying to survive.

Lockwood had no sympathy for that view. You fought your boat or you became cannon fodder on a beach somewhere. At least there you weren't endangering 60 other good men.

Bubblehead1980 · 06-10-10, 05:57 AM

yea, makes you wonder how things wouldve turned out if sub force had not been in the hands of a wise man like Lockwood. I knew Captains didnt suddenly change their mind, the ostrichs were sent packing and the new guys were given free reign for the most part to sink, sink and sink some more.

Not sure if youve ever played a patrol, esp an early war patrol using the old tactics of staying submerged all day and surfacing at night, what a different game, give it a try in early war if you havent, you seem to like a challenge Robbins

Red Devil · 06-10-10, 07:14 AM

Lockwood saved the subs skins no doubt. he also listened to the captains reports about the magnetic detonators. Nobody else did.

WarlordATF · 06-10-10, 07:50 AM

Another point is the early war Captains were under orders to stay submerged all day, during pre-war training if even your periscope was sighted during wargames you were disiplined and could even lose your command.

To call these men cowards or ostrichs is a dis-service to them. Many could not fight their boats and lost their commands because alot of the Torps couldn't hit a anchored target at point blank range.

We all have that friend that knows everything and you can not change their minds until they are completely proven wrong. Thats how the Navy Brass was and they risked these mens careers and lives because they just couldn't be wrong.

Frying Tiger · 06-10-10, 08:12 AM

I've found that before you get an SJ, patrolling submerged gives you a greater detection range at times with the sonar than your visual search. You can then surface and run down the sonar bearing until you pick them up.

Bubblehead1980 · 06-10-10, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarlordATF

Another point is the early war Captains were under orders to stay submerged all day, during pre-war training if even your periscope was sighted during wargames you were disiplined and could even lose your command.

To call these men cowards or ostrichs is a dis-service to them. Many could not fight their boats and lost their commands because alot of the Torps couldn't hit a anchored target at point blank range.

We all have that friend that knows everything and you can not change their minds until they are completely proven wrong. Thats how the Navy Brass was and they risked these mens careers and lives because they just couldn't be wrong.

Good point warlord, not fair to tag them all as ostrichs or cowards.Many were just operating as trained and ordered.However, some continued to do so even after they were allowed to operate in other manners.LCDR Donald McGregor, the first Skipper of the USS Seahorse comes to mind.Slade Cutter was his XO and they clashed because of McGregor's ultra conservative, ostrich approach, if I recalle correctly he even passed up some prime targets.Read that in the book MARU KILLER by Dave Bauslog, great read.Cutter did say in the book to be fair to McGregor, it's the way he was trained but admits he was on the line of cowardice.McGregor had also been removed from one command but managed to get assigned to Seahorse because he was well connected.McGregor was out after some unproductive patrols and Cutter took over.Sure you know about Cutter but he went on to sink many ships while in charge of Seahorse.

06-09-10, 11:36 PM	#2
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,128 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	Was in no way saying anyone had to patrol submerged.Just saying since the pre war tactic of being a slightly mobile minefield, just staying under during day and surfacing at night was very common first couple years of the war, I began to follow the doctrine if playing in 41, 42 and early 43 because it adds to the challenge.Once I get into late 43 and on I stay on surface most of the time as they did in RL. Up to the player of course. One boo boo they made is giving us the TBT from day one of the war, US subs didnt do night surface attacks ( few brave skippers who winged it and did night surface attacks without training) until 43 or so.Again, up to player. Last edited by Bubblehead1980; 06-10-10 at 05:52 AM.

06-10-10, 04:38 AM	#3
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	What they don't tell you is that the reason tactics changed wasn't that the captains changed their minds. The ostriches who hid all day were fired and sent to pound sand on the beaches of Japanese infested islands and new blood, who were willing to fight their boats were brought in to get the job done. The one who made that happen was Admiral Lockwood, who wasn't afraid to make wholesale changes necessary to get some production out of the boats. It wasn't as if they were really safe hiding underwater all day anyway. It wasn't as if changing the plan to surfaced patrol was going to cost more American lives. It was that those sacrifices would actually have some justification when the submarines were producing victory instead of pursuing some pipe dream of just trying to survive. Lockwood had no sympathy for that view. You fought your boat or you became cannon fodder on a beach somewhere. At least there you weren't endangering 60 other good men. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

06-10-10, 07:14 AM	#5
Red Devil The Old Man Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sutton Coldfield England Posts: 1,540 Downloads: 305 Uploads: 0	Lockwood saved the subs skins no doubt. he also listened to the captains reports about the magnetic detonators. Nobody else did. __________________ > > Captain!, there's a destroyer on the por........ periscope is flooded Sir! > Darkness is only the absence of Light; Ignorance is only the absence of knowledge © www.worldwartwo.uk www.captainwalker.uk

06-10-10, 07:50 AM	#6
WarlordATF Frogman Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: SW Florida Posts: 288 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 0	Another point is the early war Captains were under orders to stay submerged all day, during pre-war training if even your periscope was sighted during wargames you were disiplined and could even lose your command. To call these men cowards or ostrichs is a dis-service to them. Many could not fight their boats and lost their commands because alot of the Torps couldn't hit a anchored target at point blank range. We all have that friend that knows everything and you can not change their minds until they are completely proven wrong. Thats how the Navy Brass was and they risked these mens careers and lives because they just couldn't be wrong. __________________

06-10-10, 08:12 AM	#7
Frying Tiger Sonalysts Man Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Waterford, CT Posts: 113 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I've found that before you get an SJ, patrolling submerged gives you a greater detection range at times with the sonar than your visual search. You can then surface and run down the sonar bearing until you pick them up. __________________ *Roger "Frying Tiger"* Long** Art Lead Sonalysts Combat Simulations "the atom-powered submarine: Her engines were to be a miracle of speed and power, her sides strong enough to withstand any blow... The mind of man had thought of everything - except that which was beyond his comprehension!"

06-09-10, 08:09 PM	#1
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Only time I patrol underwater is to yo you in a S boat since sonar only works dived.

06-10-10, 05:57 AM	#4
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,128 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	yea, makes you wonder how things wouldve turned out if sub force had not been in the hands of a wise man like Lockwood. I knew Captains didnt suddenly change their mind, the ostrichs were sent packing and the new guys were given free reign for the most part to sink, sink and sink some more. Not sure if youve ever played a patrol, esp an early war patrol using the old tactics of staying submerged all day and surfacing at night, what a different game, give it a try in early war if you havent, you seem to like a challenge Robbins