The cartoon "Polygon"

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Platapus

If you lived in the old Soviet Union, would you have any sense of optimism?

I don't know, I never lived in the Soviet Union. I've heard some former Soviets who hated the Socialist Republics and some who pine for the lost Union. I have no kind of context with which to understand their mentality. That's why I'm asking the Russian, numnuts

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I don't know, I never lived in the Soviet Union. I've heard some former Soviets who hated the Socialist Republics and some who pine for the lost Union. I have no kind of context with which to understand their mentality. That's why I'm asking the Russian, numnuts

My personal observations.

You can never fully understand them if you dont learn the language and live there.

You can try by reading their history especially from the time and end of the Mongol rule.
They are fatalistic and it seems to come from very tough times endured.

Individual Russians are usually very warm and welcoming persons.
But to be true friends with them is usually not so easy and they have a small but very loyal inner circle.
They really only trust these people.

Its when they are addressed as a nation or a group they are often a pain in the butt.
They have a practical sense about violence and war that conflicts with the western view.

They are often very curious about the outside world and its views towards them.
They are usually very proud of being Russian but still periodically have low esteem about themselfs.

All this combined explains a lot of the fatalistic attitude, dark humor and acceptance for authoritarian rule by small cliques.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

My personal observations.

You can never fully understand them if you dont learn the language and live there.

You can try by reading their history especially from the time and end of the Mongol rule.
They are fatalistic and it seems to come from very tough times endured.

Individual Russians are usually very warm and welcoming persons.
But to be true friends with them is usually not so easy and they have a small but very loyal inner circle.
They really only trust these people.

Its when they are addressed as a nation or a group they are often a pain in the butt.
They have a practical sense about violence and war that conflicts with the western view.

They are often very curious about the outside world and its views towards them.
They are usually very proud of being Russian but still periodically have low esteem about themselfs.

All this combined explains a lot of the fatalistic attitude, dark humor and acceptance for authoritarian rule by small cliques.

As a Russian myself, I would have to say that's an extremely accurate general description. You definitely have a good understanding of the culture in this regard.

Otherwise as far as former republics, look, it's not the Russians that have to apologize. It's their unelected and oppressive leaders. While I completely understand that the republics and other countries of the "near abroad" have definitely been wronged and were relatively worse off under Soviet pressure/rule than independently, I disagree that they got the short end of the stick. If anyone did, it was almost always the Russians themselves. In fact day-to-day conditions in republics, from what I know, were better than the Russian SSR itself (and I know this from having relatives in Estonia myself) for most of Soviet rule. But again, perhaps Russians just had less to miss as far as freedom and prosperity goes...

That said, I'm personally sorry that it had to be that way. I wish those mistreated by Soviet authorities, however, would stop projecting their anger and disdain onto today's Russians (and at least to some extent today's Russian state, although it does deserve a fair amount of skepticism). Most of those complicit in the injustices of those days are dead or at least retired now. And I really wish that the new generation of Russians grows up without the impression that the rest of the world hates them for wrongs that they as individuals never really had a part in.

And that is a really great animation, by the way. Very original visual style, thoughtful (if indeed very glum) concept.

[Susexx]

Originally Posted by CCIP

As a Russian myself, I would have to say that's an extremely accurate general description. You definitely have a good understanding of the culture in this regard.

Otherwise as far as former republics, look, it's not the Russians that have to apologize. It's their unelected and oppressive leaders. While I completely understand that the republics and other countries of the "near abroad" have definitely been wronged and were relatively worse off under Soviet pressure/rule than independently, I disagree that they got the short end of the stick. If anyone did, it was almost always the Russians themselves. In fact day-to-day conditions in republics, from what I know, were better than the Russian SSR itself (and I know this from having relatives in Estonia myself) for most of Soviet rule. But again, perhaps Russians just had less to miss as far as freedom and prosperity goes...

That said, I'm personally sorry that it had to be that way. I wish those mistreated by Soviet authorities, however, would stop projecting their anger and disdain onto today's Russians (and at least to some extent today's Russian state, although it does deserve a fair amount of skepticism).

And that is a really great animation, by the way. Very original visual style, thoughtful (if indeed very glum) concept.

It agree completely.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by CCIP

As a Russian myself, I would have to say that's an extremely accurate general description. You definitely have a good understanding of the culture in this regard.

Otherwise as far as former republics, look, it's not the Russians that have to apologize. It's their unelected and oppressive leaders. While I completely understand that the republics and other countries of the "near abroad" have definitely been wronged and were relatively worse off under Soviet pressure/rule than independently, I disagree that they got the short end of the stick. If anyone did, it was almost always the Russians themselves. In fact day-to-day conditions in republics, from what I know, were better than the Russian SSR itself (and I know this from having relatives in Estonia myself) for most of Soviet rule. But again, perhaps Russians just had less to miss as far as freedom and prosperity goes...

That said, I'm personally sorry that it had to be that way. I wish those mistreated by Soviet authorities, however, would stop projecting their anger and disdain onto today's Russians (and at least to some extent today's Russian state, although it does deserve a fair amount of skepticism). Most of those complicit in the injustices of those days are dead or at least retired now. And I really wish that the new generation of Russians grows up without the impression that the rest of the world hates them for wrongs that they as individuals never really had a part in.

And that is a really great animation, by the way. Very original visual style, thoughtful (if indeed very glum) concept.

Thank you and in principal i agree, my beef is with the version of history promoted in Russia.

It is dualistic like many other things in Russia.
Government can condemn and promote Stalins time for example.
Russians desire to be excepted as European but at the same time want to hold that they are something different.

To me Russia is an matryoshka doll, enigma within enigma.
Often i understand some events or reactions after they have happened when i get past the Finnish mindset.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Thank you all for the interesting perspectives.

I have to admit, the Soviet Union still sounds like a living hell to me, but it's nice to get some perspective on the quality of life there. The only perspective I have comes from my Ukranian stepmother, who alternates between loving and hating the Soviet Union. When she has to pay for a doctor's appointment she loves the Union. When she goes to Wal-Mart she hates it.

As interesting as these perspectives are, I think I'm more comfortable with my Western lifestyle and mindset; "Better dead, than Red"

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by CCIP

As a Russian myself, I would have to say that's an extremely accurate general description. You definitely have a good understanding of the culture in this regard.

Otherwise as far as former republics, look, it's not the Russians that have to apologize. It's their unelected and oppressive leaders. While I completely understand that the republics and other countries of the "near abroad" have definitely been wronged and were relatively worse off under Soviet pressure/rule than independently, I disagree that they got the short end of the stick. If anyone did, it was almost always the Russians themselves. In fact day-to-day conditions in republics, from what I know, were better than the Russian SSR itself (and I know this from having relatives in Estonia myself) for most of Soviet rule. But again, perhaps Russians just had less to miss as far as freedom and prosperity goes...

That said, I'm personally sorry that it had to be that way. I wish those mistreated by Soviet authorities, however, would stop projecting their anger and disdain onto today's Russians (and at least to some extent today's Russian state, although it does deserve a fair amount of skepticism). Most of those complicit in the injustices of those days are dead or at least retired now. And I really wish that the new generation of Russians grows up without the impression that the rest of the world hates them for wrongs that they as individuals never really had a part in.

And that is a really great animation, by the way. Very original visual style, thoughtful (if indeed very glum) concept.

Dont´'t disagree with anything you have said here.

But I do project some disdain towards Russians here in Estonia who flat out refuse to learn the language, but still demand citizenship and other assorted problems from that contingent of people.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

Dont´'t disagree with anything you have said here.

But I do project some disdain towards Russians here in Estonia who flat out refuse to learn the language, but still demand citizenship and other assorted problems from that contingent of people.

Totally understandable. While I think many Russians are treated kind of unfairly in the Baltic just because they're Russian, I think some of the habits have to change. Russians have plenty to learn of good civic habits there anyway - I just wish both sides would tone down the nationalism a little. When I went to Estonia in the early 90s, it really struck me how much more civil, clean and quiet the place seemed than neighbouring Russia. Those things are worth protecting from too much Russian influence than national identity as such, I think.

I have a lot of relatives in Estonia (ironically, they're more German and Swedish by blood than Russian) and most of them, I would say, are doing pretty well. They're not stuck on national identity and are active members of their communities instead. I wish everyone could just do that.

[antikristuseke]

Agreed, rabbid nationalism does noone any good.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I don't know, I never lived in the Soviet Union. I've heard some former Soviets who hated the Socialist Republics and some who pine for the lost Union. I have no kind of context with which to understand their mentality. That's why I'm asking the Russian, numnuts

Basically take everything Susexx describes and reverse it, that is how lifein the soviet union looked like from this side, the side of an occupied country that "voulentarily" joined the brotherhood of socialist republics.
To serve in the soviet army was not a privilege, but at times a death sentence, the conditions in the army, as my uncle who served in Afghanistan describes, were horrible at the best of times. My father had a bit of a better time in the navy.
While the factories worked they produced useless crap. People saw it as a duty to steal from the places they worked at. No one was motivated.
Freedom as such did not really exist, while there were elections for some
positions only party approved people ran, and even then there was a clear favorite who had to win. 99.8% of the population voted, yay.
The soviet onion did not fall apart because Gorbatchev was put in power, it was a sinking ship well before that, the economy was not able to sustain itself because it produced items of no value on the internal or external market, the farming industry had huge setbacks as really, really stupid mistakes were made in crop engineering which failed spectacularly. If anything people were slaves before the collapse of the onion, after that we do havea lot more freedom and will not be shot for having an opinion, wont be dragged to the kgb building basement to be tortured.

Most people who miss the soviet union never lived in it, or lived in a position where they were more equal than others. In short it was petty ****, not quite the hellhole the western media made it out to be but just as far from the paradise the ironically named Pravda made it out to be either. The only way to make it was to adopt a fatalistic view of life and develop a darksense of humour that goes with that.

[Susexx]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

Basically take everything Susexx describes and reverse it, that is how lifein the soviet union looked like from this side, the side of an occupied country that "voulentarily" joined the brotherhood of socialist republics.
To serve in the soviet army was not a privilege, but at times a death sentence, the conditions in the army, as my uncle who served in Afghanistan describes, were horrible at the best of times. My father had a bit of a better time in the navy.
While the factories worked they produced useless crap. People saw it as a duty to steal from the places they worked at. No one was motivated.
Freedom as such did not really exist, while there were elections for some
positions only party approved people ran, and even then there was a clear favorite who had to win. 99.8% of the population voted, yay.
The soviet onion did not fall apart because Gorbatchev was put in power, it was a sinking ship well before that, the economy was not able to sustain itself because it produced items of no value on the internal or external market, the farming industry had huge setbacks as really, really stupid mistakes were made in crop engineering which failed spectacularly. If anything people were slaves before the collapse of the onion, after that we do havea lot more freedom and will not be shot for having an opinion, wont be dragged to the kgb building basement to be tortured.

Most people who miss the soviet union never lived in it, or lived in a position where they were more equal than others. In short it was petty ****, not quite the hellhole the western media made it out to be but just as far from the paradise the ironically named Pravda made it out to be either. The only way to make it was to adopt a fatalistic view of life and develop a darksense of humour that goes with that.

To whom in the Union was badly, to that and now in independence is disgustingly. To me of 40 years and I saw that for the country was and in what it has turned. I recommend to watch TV less, it knowingly name "zombie-box". Give we will not water each other with a dirt, especially as to history of our former "general" country. It seems to me not absolutely correctly.

[antikristuseke]

I am sorry, but I find you very difficult to understand could you please rephrase. What I posted does not come from tv, but from people in my immediate and extended family, coworkers and my own experiences.

As far as Estonia is concerned things are a lot better now than they were before. I am not trying to throw dirt on you, if that is what you ment, I am just giving you my perspective on a period of history.

[Susexx]

Ок, I consider that in the history of Soviet Union there were also unpleasant moments. In my family too it is a lot of victims both from a Gulag and from war in Afghanistan and the Chechen Republic. But I would not began to say that was badly. Many aspects of social policy were much more above than now. Likely before Christopher Columbus's arrival to America too was and it is good and bad simultaneously.

With friendly greetings, yours the neighbour, Susexx!

[antikristuseke]

Of course, there were good things and there were bad things, but overall I prefer the situation now to what it was then.

I think there is a kind of Slavic mentality that is quite melancholic in art, just read some of the books they've written like War & Peace, Dr Zhivago, etc., not many happy endings there. Partly I guess this is due to the fact that Russia/USSR has always been a pretty difficult place to live to the average people. With the Czar they had land slavery etc. and then came socialism and the basic things improved a little but a lot of things led to power struggles and eventually the iron curtain.