Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[Skybird]

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/arti..._Pool_of_Blood

Oh this truth is a curious thing,
but I can't deny all the lies it brings.

[Bilge_Rat]

There are extremists in every country on earth. Israel is a secular society and a liberal democracy. Women, for example, can be anything they want, from soldier, policewomen, doctors, politicians, even Prime Minister.

In Muslim countries, women face all types of restricitons, from having few legal rights vs their fathers/husbands, not being allowed to drive cars, to having to wear a Burqua in public, or in worst cases, being killed for having "dishonoured" their families by being caught alone with a man or having acid thrown in the faces of young girls just because they attend a school.

Every country around Israel, namely Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia is guilty of major human rights abuses, from arbitrary detention of hundreds of dissidents, to torture, to arbitrary killings and murders. (no need to take my word for it, just check the latest free Amnesty International report available on their website)

Of course, none of this ever gets reported or discussed. Al-Jazeera, for example extensively reports any bad news involving Israel or US/NATO in Iraq/Afghanistan while turning a blind eye to repression in Arab countries. There are many reasons for this, but the most important one is the fact that many arab countries have threatened to shut down the network if it reports on human right abuses in their country. On the other hand, extensive coverage of any perceived abuses by Israel or the USA is popular in every arab country.

Everyone simplifies the issue to being a purely Israeli problem, when it has always been a regional conflict which requires a regional solution. In 1947, the UN came up with a partition plan for Palestine. In 1948, Palestinian Arabs, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi arabia and Iraq all declared war on Israel, preferring to solve the issue by war. They lost, as they also lost in every other war since then. Since 1949, Israel has been waiting for a peaceful solution. Has there been intransigeance from Israel? yes, but there has been as much intrasigeance from the arab states who have their own reasons to perpetuate the conflict. Meanwhile the Palestinians are caught in the middle.

For 19 years from 1948 to 1967, the west bank and Gaza were occupied by Jordan and Egypt. Did they take steps to setup a Palestinian state? no, they just ruled the territories as their own. Palestinians have been living in arab countries since 1948, but in many cases have no legal status, even those born in other countries are not granted citizenship and can be expelled, as many were when the PLO sided with Iraq in the 1991 Gulf War. Of course, Palestinians did not go out of their way to be acepted. They tried to take over Jordan by force in 1970 and King Hussein had to use his army to throw them out. They tried to carve out a piece of Lebanon which was one of the causes of the Lebanese civil war.

Until everyone in the region is wiling to sit down and come up with a practical solution that garantees Israel's security inside the pre-1967 borders and clarifies the status of Palestinians, the conflict will go on.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

There are extremists in every country on earth. Israel is a secular society and a liberal democracy. Women, for example, can be anything they want, from soldier, policewomen, doctors, politicians, even Prime Minister.

In Muslim countries, women face all types of restricitons, from having few legal rights vs their fathers/husbands, not being allowed to drive cars, to having to wear a Burqua in public, or in worst cases, being killed for having "dishonoured" their families by being caught alone with a man or having acid thrown in the faces of young girls just because they attend a school.

Every country around Israel, namely Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia is guilty of major human rights abuses, from arbitrary detention of hundreds of dissidents, to torture, to arbitrary killings and murders. (no need to take my word for it, just check the latest free Amnesty International report available on their website)

Of course, none of this ever gets reported or discussed. Al-Jazeera, for example extensively reports any bad news involving Israel or US/NATO in Iraq/Afghanistan while turning a blind eye to repression in Arab countries. There are many reasons for this, but the most important one is the fact that many arab countries have threatened to shut down the network if it reports on human right abuses in their country. On the other hand, extensive coverage of any perceived abuses by Israel or the USA is popular in every arab country.

Everyone simplifies the issue to being a purely Israeli problem, when it has always been a regional conflict which requires a regional solution. In 1947, the UN came up with a partition plan for Palestine. In 1948, Palestinian Arabs, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi arabia and Iraq all declared war on Israel, preferring to solve the issue by war. They lost, as they also lost in every other war since then. Since 1949, Israel has been waiting for a peaceful solution. Has there been intransigeance from Israel? yes, but there has been as much intrasigeance from the arab states who have their own reasons to perpetuate the conflict. Meanwhile the Palestinians are caught in the middle.

For 19 years from 1948 to 1967, the west bank and Gaza were occupied by Jordan and Egypt. Did they take steps to setup a Palestinian state? no, they just ruled the territories as their own. Palestinians have been living in arab countries since 1948, but in many cases have no legal status, even those born in other countries are not granted citizenship and can be expelled, as many were when the PLO sided with Iraq in the 1991 Gulf War. Of course, Palestinians did not go out of their way to be acepted. They tried to take over Jordan by force in 1970 and King Hussein had to use his army to throw them out. They tried to carve out a piece of Lebanon which was one of the causes of the Lebanese civil war.

Until everyone in the region is wiling to sit down and come up with a practical solution that garantees Israel's security inside the pre-1967 borders and clarifies the status of Palestinians, the conflict will go on.

You should write more of this stuff.

About who is a "Palestinian" and how they came from neighboring countries to live in the camps to claim status as one and get the international aid it included.

About how the first settlers payed over priced demands for peaces of dirt or marsh and made them green.

Had Israel never born in 1948 there probably wouldnt be much of anything in that strip of land, strip the size of smallest Finnish province.
And the Arabs have conquered a hundred time more, how much do they need.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

BTW don't you find it funny that the real fundy extreme orthodox don't recognise the state of Israel, which puts them in the same camp as the theocracy in Iran

Yes its funny but all they do all day is just Mitzvot and pray....they don't have jihad on their agenda.
Judaism is not expansive religion.
Its very opposite Jews actually don't want converts and any one who wants to become a Jew must go through very hard path.

If tomorrow Israel is overtaken by Syria i dint think they(orthidox)will even notice.
So not much similarity here besides fact that both pray a lot.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

True, if I may paraphrase Ami Izeroff.
Even if Avigdor only believes a fraction of what he campaigns for and says then he can only be described as a vile racist, but he deliberately paints himself as a racist anyway as that is what gets him votes.
So how does that measure against MHs claim that no one sponsors hatred?


@MH on another note.........
the thing with the building and maintaining of fragile coilitions is that the government has to pander disproportionaly to the aims of whichever extremists it relies on to build its coilition.

Im not sure what are you talking about.Im not sure even you do.
But again its a matter whom you label as extremist.

Originally Posted by MH

Yes its funny but all they do all day is just Mitzvot and pray....they don't have jihad on their agenda.
Judaism is not expansive religion.
Its very opposite Jews actually don't want converts and any one who wants to become a Jew must go through very hard path.

If tomorrow Israel is overtaken by Syria i dint think they(orthidox)will even notice.
So not much similarity here besides fact that both pray a lot.

If kids have a Jewish mother then the kids are accepted as Jews. Then there are the various sects within Judaism, I don't even how many and what their system of accepting converts is.

That Kabbalah - stuff seems very popular among Hollywood celebrities, who are I'm sure better and more should I say lucrative clients...err I mean members of congreation to the priests and rabbis then, say, poor Africans.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I will never understand, after the winning of the Nobel prize, that a right wing israeli assassin was able to kill Rabin, and immediately after this just of all a right wing hardliner like this asassin becoming head of the state WTF did they think they were doing ?
Greetings,
Catfish

If Rabin wasn't killed it wouldn't change anything.
A what you called hardliner wasn't chosen because Rabin was killed.
He was chosen because Arafat who also won Nobel prize put Israel through wave of terror that was unknown here until then.
I believe that Rabin if he wasn't killed would do exactly what the others after him did or even more and for good reason.

[MH]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

If kids have a Jewish mother then the kids are accepted as Jews. Then there are the various sects within Judaism, I don't even how many and what their system of accepting converts is.

That Kabbalah - stuff seems very popular among Hollywood celebrities, who are I'm sure better and more should I say lucrative clients...err I mean members of congreation to the priests and rabbis then, say, poor Africans.

How come you somtimes seem so smartass and then write this crap....
.....Are you antisemitic?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

For 19 years from 1948 to 1967, the west bank and Gaza were occupied by Jordan and Egypt. Did they take steps to setup a Palestinian state? no, they just ruled the territories as their own. Palestinians have been living in arab countries since 1948, but in many cases have no legal status, even those born in other countries are not granted citizenship and can be expelled, as many were when the PLO sided with Iraq in the 1991 Gulf War. Of course, Palestinians did not go out of their way to be acepted. They tried to take over Jordan by force in 1970 and King Hussein had to use his army to throw them out. They tried to carve out a piece of Lebanon which was one of the causes of the Lebanese civil war.

Some good facts about Arafat and PLO....
As i said many times Palestinians people are tools for Arab nations to fight Israel.
70% of Jordan's citizens are Palestinians and King Hussein slaughtered thousands to get rid of PLO.
Arabs they are not such a dumb asses as it seems they know exactly how to manipulate average global citizen.

[caspofungin]

i tried hard not to get dragged into this thread, but i guess i'm weak...

the 1947 un agreement wasn't accepted because it gave the jewish minority population a fraction of the land that was much much larger than their proportion of the population. to say nothing of the fact that arabs had been living there previously...

regarding the palestinian refugees -- if they get accepted by other arab countries as citizens, then suddenly the issue of those thousands of refugees and their lack of right of return is suddenly something the israelis no longer have to consider.

finally, this whole idea that palestine was nothing but dirt and rocks until the israelis turned into some kind of garden, is, unfortunately, a fabrication of israeli propoganda.

Originally Posted by MH

How come you somtimes seem so smartass and then write this crap....
.....Are you antisemitic?

I don't see your ass posting facts that prove otherwise.

[August]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

I don't see your ass posting facts that prove otherwise.

And I don't see you answering his question either.

[MH]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

regarding the palestinian refugees -- if they get accepted by other arab countries as citizens, then suddenly the issue of those thousands of refugees and their lack of right of return is suddenly something the israelis no longer have to consider.
.

Isn't that just excellent and elegant way to keep Palestinians angry at Israel for ages to come and keep the conflict going?.
What about their human rights and way they get treated by their Arab brothers who shout when ever they can that we starve little kids to death.

[caspofungin]

i'm not saying it's a good thing -- i'm just saying that there is a reason for it. and if the israelis feel so much for the palestinian refugees, why won't they let them come back?

There are extremists in every country on earth.

Including Israel.

(no need to take my word for it, just check the latest free Amnesty International report available on their website)

Did you skip the section in the middle east report that deals with Israel as just about everything you list the horrible countries doing in those reports is also listed in Israels section plus a few different ones for good measure.

Of course, none of this ever gets reported or discussed. Al-Jazeera, for example extensively reports any bad news involving Israel or US/NATO in Iraq/Afghanistan while turning a blind eye to repression in Arab countries.

So you never read or view reports by al-jazeera then.

There are many reasons for this, but the most important one is the fact that many arab countries have threatened to shut down the network if it reports on human right abuses in their country.

So when Bahrain became the latest place to ban them it was obviously because the media had given into the threats about not writing bad stuff about Bahrain.

Everyone simplifies the issue to being a purely Israeli problem

Really, where?

For 19 years from 1948 to 1967, the west bank and Gaza were occupied by Jordan and Egypt. Did they take steps to setup a Palestinian state? no

That isn't actually true is it.
But if you want to get into the deal done between the emerging state of Israel and Jordan fine, feel free to open that up, or even open up the deal the Hashemites got in Lieu of their claim on Syria.
Oh sorry I forgot, you think everyone thinks is purely an Israeli problem

Until everyone in the region is wiling to sit down and come up with a practical solution that garantees Israel's security inside the pre-1967 borders and clarifies the status of Palestinians, the conflict will go on.

Well sadly you know that ain't gonna happen for a long long time.

Im not sure what are you talking about.

Its quite simple, you made some very absolute statements, elements of those statements were not true and you know full well they were not true.
You shouldn't have been so absolute in your defence of Israel with those claims as it destroys your credibilty when your claims are false.

[MH]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

i'm not saying it's a good thing -- i'm just saying that there is a reason for it. and if the israelis feel so much for the palestinian refugees, why won't they let them come back?

Don't you think it would be end of Israel considering traditions of Middle Eastern countries.
I don't feel like living in another Iraq or Jordan do you?
Letting those refuges in is smoothest and most effective way to end this country as a free Jewish state.

Originally Posted by caspofungin

i
finally, this whole idea that palestine was nothing but dirt and rocks until the israelis turned into some kind of garden, is, unfortunately, a fabrication of israeli propoganda.

Well...it is kind of truth -besides baby killing and weapon trading Israel is country which deals all over the world with agricultural technology.
We have well known institute which genetically adapts various crops for desert.
Lets say Israel is much more greener than it used to be and most of the "forests"(really humble ones comparing to Europe) are planted.
Damn i start to feel like propaganda machine...