U.S. military acknowledged killing 23 civilians - Page 10

06-04-10, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Look where he got the pictures. No wonder he bristles whenever someone badmouths commies...

They were among the first that came up with Google search. Not that the other content on that page is that off the mark, pretty spot on if you ask me.

Oberon · 06-04-10, 12:15 PM

Here's some more pics of the big bad western troops in Afghanistan and Iraq:

Disgraceful...

Weiss Pinguin · 06-04-10, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Disgraceful...

The audacity of some soldiers is absolutely appalling

06-04-10, 01:15 PM

Ok I added the warning.

AVGWarhawk · 06-04-10, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Ok I added the warning.

Thanks. We can not hide or run from the atrocity of war. Truly, if we do not see it it does not mean these atrocities are not there. A warning is always nice.

Thanks again.

Jimbuna · 06-04-10, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Look where he got the pictures. No wonder he bristles whenever someone badmouths commies...

Your surely not suprised

It's not as if this is the first time

Oberon · 06-04-10, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Thanks. We can not hide or run from the atrocity of war. Truly, if we do not see it it does not mean these atrocities are not there. A warning is always nice.

Thanks again.

Well said, war is terrible, no-one who has ever fought in a war really wants to see another, however it's not as if only one side is doing the killing, civilians always face the worst of war, just ask the inhabitants of any of the nations involved in the Second World War in Europe.

You have to admit though, although the smart weapons are not infallible, they HAVE reduced civilian casualties in comparison to those in war say fifty-sixty odd years ago.

You will never end war, but you can try to make it cleaner...if the enemy is willing to co-operate that is.

Jimbuna · 06-04-10, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weiss Pinguin

Can someone remove these links? Incredibly tasteless and crosses the line.

I don't care what the point is, or who's trying to make it, posting graphic images like these is not called for.

links have been removed WP and I applaud the common sense decision/move

heartc · 06-04-10, 06:39 PM

Oh yeah. I know America is very bad. I hear it all the time here. Oh dear Lord, why did you bring America upon us? Let's see how much better the world would be off without it (yeah, I'm not a fan of "what if" scenarios either, but this one is pretty straight forward):

There would probably still be monarchies all over the place in Europe. But this is too complicated to grasp, or might even not have been bad in some places, so let's fast forward a bit more:

1. 1945. Probably more like 1948 / 49: All of Europe, with - probably - the exception of the British Isles, would be living in the Stalinist dictatorship. Or maybe - but far less likely - in Nazi dictatorship. The whole of Europe, starting at least from France, would probably be a Communist dictatorship.

2. There would be no free press as a result of that.

3. No free elections either.

4. No free people, responsible only to their God. Instead, only confined people under the state.

5. No access to a free internet for free citizens. No OTH posting anti-american crap, no Dowly posting boobies, no Tribesman posting about the religion of peace, no Skybird posting about the next crusade. The internet would be read-only - if it at all existed - to further the proper education of the collective.

6. No free media. Media would only be the mouthpiece of the political bureau, be it Nazi or Communist.

7. Lots of dead heroes no one would have ever heard of - those people who would try to change all the above into something better, but have neither an outside source of support, nor sufficient means for support from within to achieve that. And if anyone would ever hear about them, it would be once they were dead, disgraced by the state run information and media system as traitors to the greater glory of the state.

This is a very realistic scenario. France was conquered, and England was isolated. It WOULD have been either Communism or Nazism for all of Europe (with maybe the exception of England).
And yes, maybe at some point enough people would have stood up against all odds, and get crushed, and stood up again decades later, and get crushed again, and MAYBE would have stood up once more and MAYBE would have even re-acquired FREEDOM after all, in some countries. But that would have been a long time into the future and would have cost a lot of lifes.

But it didn't happen like that. Instead, some people from across the pond got involved. People who had gone over there to win freedom in the first place. And then, when they came back, they didn't "just" crush Nazism and kept communism at bay, but they also enabled the free people of Europe - including their former enemies - to live as free individuals in a free world. And then, after another several decades, through steadfastness - AND brave people in those other countries - this free world was extended to other countries that hadn't seen freedom since 1939.
And by God, the Americans are around when freedom happens til today. People who were formerly forbidden to educate themselves can now do so in Afghanistan. People who could not vote in Iraq can now do so. Including those whose existence previously was limited to getting gassed by chemical air attacks.

The Americans don't do it because they love mankind so much. They do it because their system - including the outside periphery - can only work when people have freedom. That's what makes it probably the best system mankind has ever come up with (and the Americans didn't invent it, but they re-introduced it in modern history, and with force). The system itself is Freedom. Is it perfect? No. Because man is not perfect.

But say whatever the **** you will - never in the history of mankind has there been a time when so many people have been living so free under fair law, had so much education, and so many possibilities.

No, America is not the Messiah. America has a lot of power, and so much power can be dangerous. But the very essence of the idea of America is that this power, in the end, is not in the hands of parties or the state, but of THE PEOPLE (and it is designed to protect that very freedom from outside offenders who would love nothing more than see America be gone).
That's why I would hate to ever see America, politically, moving into the direction of the EU or any European country. Because those countries are putting too much faith into the state, and too little trust into the citizens. If America would ever do that, it will be the end of it, and it might end up destroying the whole damn world. Because the first thing the state tries to do, once it has gained a critical mass of power, is to secure that by taking the rights from the people and dumbing them down so they stop asking questions. And once it has done that, there's no telling where this new found power is planning to stop, if at all.

But as of now, America has been the opposite: It is a country where THE PEOPLE are bearing arms and say that whenever the state gets too loud, we will shoot its ass up. Or we will impeach our President. Or we will throw our Governors into jail. And they DO IT, too. And THAT is what makes the difference. For all the bad things America might do, it is still kept in check by the only sound kind of collective there is: A collective of FREE PEOPLE. And in this imperfect world, this is the closest thing to perfection you could ever hope to achieve.

All this Anti-Americanism, which is kinda "trendy" these days, only goes to show how dumb mankind can really be. Today we are living in a world that most people in history could have only dreamed of. And it wasn't Russia, China, India, Finland or France who brought that about in recent decades. And no, it wasn't "America" either. It were the FREE PEOPLE of America. We can be as free once we get over our Anti-American inferiority complex and take care of our own countries instead of bitching about American politics.

God Bless.

And God damn me if the above is not part of the best music in the world.

CaptainHaplo · 06-04-10, 06:46 PM

And may he bless you, Heartc.

August · 06-04-10, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

And may he bless you, Heartc.

Seconded.

Sailor Steve · 06-04-10, 08:21 PM

Heartc, if any American had said those words they would have been considered jingoistic at the very least. Coming from outside, especially from Germany, they are one of the kindest compliments we have ever been payed. With a tiny bit of editing (for correct English only - I wouldn't change a word) that could be a speech to be published and remembered.

Thank you.

AVGWarhawk · 06-04-10, 10:09 PM

Damn HeartC...absolutely beautiful. It is the likes of you that I know my uncle did not die in vain flying his B17 over the Kiel subpens June 13th 1943.

Aramike · 06-05-10, 01:16 AM

Okay, I'm gonna have to remember this, heartc ... my nominee for 2010 Best of Subsim Post of the Year.

Sailor Steve · 06-05-10, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

Okay, I'm gonna have to remember this, heartc ... my nominee for 2010 Best of Subsim Post of the Year.

06-04-10, 06:39 PM	#144
heartc Samurai Navy Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Munich Posts: 562 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	Oh yeah. I know America is very bad. I hear it all the time here. Oh dear Lord, why did you bring America upon us? Let's see how much better the world would be off without it (yeah, I'm not a fan of "what if" scenarios either, but this one is pretty straight forward): There would probably still be monarchies all over the place in Europe. But this is too complicated to grasp, or might even not have been bad in some places, so let's fast forward a bit more: 1. 1945. Probably more like 1948 / 49: All of Europe, with - probably - the exception of the British Isles, would be living in the Stalinist dictatorship. Or maybe - but far less likely - in Nazi dictatorship. The whole of Europe, starting at least from France, would probably be a Communist dictatorship. 2. There would be no free press as a result of that. 3. No free elections either. 4. No free people, responsible only to their God. Instead, only confined people under the state. 5. No access to a free internet for free citizens. No OTH posting anti-american crap, no Dowly posting boobies, no Tribesman posting about the religion of peace, no Skybird posting about the next crusade. The internet would be read-only - if it at all existed - to further the proper education of the collective. 6. No free media. Media would only be the mouthpiece of the political bureau, be it Nazi or Communist. 7. Lots of dead heroes no one would have ever heard of - those people who would try to change all the above into something better, but have neither an outside source of support, nor sufficient means for support from within to achieve that. And if anyone would ever hear about them, it would be once they were dead, disgraced by the state run information and media system as traitors to the greater glory of the state. This is a very realistic scenario. France was conquered, and England was isolated. It WOULD have been either Communism or Nazism for all of Europe (with maybe the exception of England). And yes, maybe at some point enough people would have stood up against all odds, and get crushed, and stood up again decades later, and get crushed again, and MAYBE would have stood up once more and MAYBE would have even re-acquired FREEDOM after all, in some countries. But that would have been a long time into the future and would have cost a lot of lifes. But it didn't happen like that. Instead, some people from across the pond got involved. People who had gone over there to win freedom in the first place. And then, when they came back, they didn't "just" crush Nazism and kept communism at bay, but they also enabled the free people of Europe - including their former enemies - to live as free individuals in a free world. And then, after another several decades, through steadfastness - AND brave people in those other countries - this free world was extended to other countries that hadn't seen freedom since 1939. And by God, the Americans are around when freedom happens til today. People who were formerly forbidden to educate themselves can now do so in Afghanistan. People who could not vote in Iraq can now do so. Including those whose existence previously was limited to getting gassed by chemical air attacks. The Americans don't do it because they love mankind so much. They do it because their system - including the outside periphery - can only work when people have freedom. That's what makes it probably the best system mankind has ever come up with (and the Americans didn't invent it, but they re-introduced it in modern history, and with force). The system itself is Freedom. Is it perfect? No. Because man is not perfect. But say whatever the **** you will - never in the history of mankind has there been a time when so many people have been living so free under fair law, had so much education, and so many possibilities. No, America is not the Messiah. America has a lot of power, and so much power can be dangerous. But the very essence of the idea of America is that this power, in the end, is not in the hands of parties or the state, but of THE PEOPLE (and it is designed to protect that very freedom from outside offenders who would love nothing more than see America be gone). That's why I would hate to ever see America, politically, moving into the direction of the EU or any European country. Because those countries are putting too much faith into the state, and too little trust into the citizens. If America would ever do that, it will be the end of it, and it might end up destroying the whole damn world. Because the first thing the state tries to do, once it has gained a critical mass of power, is to secure that by taking the rights from the people and dumbing them down so they stop asking questions. And once it has done that, there's no telling where this new found power is planning to stop, if at all. But as of now, America has been the opposite: It is a country where THE PEOPLE are bearing arms and say that whenever the state gets too loud, we will shoot its ass up. Or we will impeach our President. Or we will throw our Governors into jail. And they DO IT, too. And THAT is what makes the difference. For all the bad things America might do, it is still kept in check by the only sound kind of collective there is: A collective of FREE PEOPLE. And in this imperfect world, this is the closest thing to perfection you could ever hope to achieve. All this Anti-Americanism, which is kinda "trendy" these days, only goes to show how dumb mankind can really be. Today we are living in a world that most people in history could have only dreamed of. And it wasn't Russia, China, India, Finland or France who brought that about in recent decades. And no, it wasn't "America" either. It were the FREE PEOPLE of America. We can be as free once we get over our Anti-American inferiority complex and take care of our own countries instead of bitching about American politics. God Bless. And God damn me if the above is not part of the best music in the world. __________________ Last edited by heartc; 06-04-10 at 06:58 PM.

06-04-10, 06:46 PM	#145
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	And may he bless you, Heartc. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

06-04-10, 08:21 PM	#147
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Heartc, if any American had said those words they would have been considered jingoistic at the very least. Coming from outside, especially from Germany, they are one of the kindest compliments we have ever been payed. With a tiny bit of editing (for correct English only - I wouldn't change a word) that could be a speech to be published and remembered. Thank you. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

06-04-10, 10:09 PM	#148
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,293 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Damn HeartC...absolutely beautiful. It is the likes of you that I know my uncle did not die in vain flying his B17 over the Kiel subpens June 13th 1943. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

06-04-10, 12:15 PM	#137
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Here's some more pics of the big bad western troops in Afghanistan and Iraq: Disgraceful...

06-04-10, 01:15 PM	#139
OneToughHerring Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Ok I added the warning.

06-05-10, 01:16 AM	#149
Aramike Ocean Warrior Best of SUBSIM Chairman Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 3,207 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	Okay, I'm gonna have to remember this, heartc ... my nominee for 2010 Best of Subsim Post of the Year.