Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[Skybird]

The act of breaking a military siege is a military act in itself.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/...n_openand.html

Even an extremly left-leaning German newpaper, the TAZ, suddenly expresses doubts about the background and motives of the organisers of that convoy, and warns of the IHH (which has faced police investigations repeatedly over claims to redirect humanitarian aid and financial donations) behind that.

(German)
http://www.taz.de/1/archiv/digitaz/a...ash=a1593226e9

Then this fine communication tape, of which I do not know what to make of it, since I found only one single IDF blog entry on it. I do not rule out, therefore, that it is a fake, but on the other hand: I also have no hint that it is a fake. Decide yourself, but take it with caution - just in case.



The sins of the dead:
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=2367

The "Jenin effect"
http://www.jpost.com/International/A...aspx?id=177164

He termed it the “Jenin effect,” a reference to false media reports (BBC) and NGO reports (Amensty International) regarding Israel's operation Defensive Shield in April 2002 against Palestinian terrorists within the Jenin refugee camp. Reports about an Israeli massacre in Jenin turned out to be fabricated, but were promulgated by anti-Israeli activists.

Well, that's it for today.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dowly

After brief consideration, I vote this thread for the "thread of a year" prize. Just... great...

I cannot remember to have ever seen such a fast-developing thread in all my years here at subsim.

The sentiments linked with these events obviously root deep, no matter their nature.

MH,

I'm sorry I don't think I fully understood what you wrote.

Originally Posted by August

Well I found this part interesting:

Pure crap. The true goal of the protesters is not that. I mean if they don't realize that this incident is only a step toward achieving the ultimate goal of weakening and isolating Israel to the point where it can be completely annihilated, then they are every bit the useful idiots that people call them.

This is the problem I have with armchair statesmen like yourself who like to Israel bash at every opportunity. This isn't some meaningless issue we're debating. The Israelis are in a never ending battle for survival against enemies that would gleefully slaughter every Jewish man, women and child if they had the opportunity. Can you even fathom what it must be like to live every day with that threat hanging over ones head?

So you really think that the issue of peace and negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians would 100% lead to destruction of Israel etc.? Do you have any concrete proof of this?

I remember when Arafat died and I was discussing the matter with a Jewish acquaintance of mine who had the rank of captain in reserve in the IDF. He was very scared that now that Arafat has died the Palestinian tide will sweep over Israel etc. etc. And what happened? Nothing really.

You talk about the destruction of Israel but you give zero (0) value to the suffering of the Palestinians. Really, have you physically visited the refugee camps? What is the base for your thinking that the Palestinians are the untermench whose suffering and dying means nothing?

You see I'm really just in the body counting business. I count bodies. I don't count imaginary bodies, I only count the bodies from our level of existance. It's not like I go to another time space - continuum and find more bodies there, no. I just count the bodies from our world. And Israel really is being the aggressor here and leading the kill count by a mile.

So, you're saying no negotiations and I say: negotiate. Who is for death and who is for life?

[MH]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

So you really think that the issue of peace and negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians would 100% lead to destruction of Israel etc.? Do you have any concrete proof of this?

We been threre done that and still doing that....and we dont want Iranian bases 50 kilometers from Tel Aviv....

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

I remember when Arafat died and I was discussing the matter with a Jewish acquaintance of mine who had the rank of captain in reserve in the IDF. He was very scared that now that Arafat has died the Palestinian tide will sweep over Israel etc. etc. And what happened? Nothing really.

What the hell you talking about??/

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

You talk about the destruction of Israel but you give zero (0) value to the suffering of the Palestinians. Really, have you physically visited the refugee camps? What is the base for your thinking that the Palestinians are the untermench whose suffering and dying means nothing?

Have you...I have and i wasn't sniping little kids.
You mentioned before kids throwing stones at tanks-doesn't make you wonder why they weren't afraid to do so.
[/QUOTE]

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

I just read through all 38 pages of this thread.

I found anti-semitism coming from OTH. I did not find even a scintilla of anti-semitism from Tribesman or anyone else. The same goes for anti-americanism.

So please, either:

1) Learn to read

2) Stop lying.

Thanks.

Angus, my comments were not limited to this thread alone - but to the history the two people mentioned have established over time. Both have exhibited distinct slants as described. Whether you like it or not, it is what it is. Its why those two are probably the most "ignored" (list wise) on Subsim. Neither is willing to discuss or debate, but instead twist and accuse. Perhaps you haven't seen it here - but I have seen enough of it over the years to know their pattern and - when I do see it because someone quotes them - then I point out the error in the post and call it like it is. Sorry you have a problem with that - but you will have to understand I won't be losing any sleep over that fact. Have a nice day.

Originally Posted by MH

We been threre done that and still doing that....and we dont want Iranian bases 50 kilometers from Tel Aviv....

Iran? What the hell are you talking about?

What the hell you talking about??/

What the hell are YOU talking about??/

Do they teach English in Israel? If not then they should, I mean you get all your money from the US.

Have you...I have and i wasn't sniping little kids.
You mentioned before kids throwing stones at tanks-doesn't make you wonder why they weren't afraid to do so.

Nope I haven't visited them but I know Israelis who have.

Well kids are evil, they haven't yet developed a conscience.

[MH]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Iran? What the hell are you talking about?



What the hell are YOU talking about??/

Do they teach English in Israel? If not then they should, I mean you get all your money from the US.



Nope I haven't visited them but I know Israelis who have.

Well kids are evil, they haven't yet developed a conscience.

Right.... thank you very much.
You are hopless....

Hopless!

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/101/hops

Actually, you're wrong. I do have beer.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by August

I think Charles Krauthammer pretty much nails the truth of the situation:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1

Great article August, thanks for sharing.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by MH

Right.... thank you very much.
You are hopless....

Hopeless MH, yes I know, but he is good for sharpening up our debating skills.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Hopless!

Resorting into judging someone's grammar is the first sign that you don't have anything else to contribute.

[CaptainHaplo]

The Israeli Commando who is credited with saving the lives of many of his fellows is due a medal apparently.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7144099.ece

As for those who say that there was no justification for lethal force as a response....

As he landed on the ship’s top deck, he said he saw three of his superior officers who had landed ahead of him lying wounded, one with a bullet wound to the stomach, another shot in the knee and the third beaten unconscious.

And a British passenger who witnessed the deadly pre-dawn encounter in international waters said that some of the more peaceful activists on board had tried to protect captured Israeli soldiers being set upon by a hardcore of passengers, most of them believed to be Turks linked to an Islamic charity accused by Israel of having links to extremists.

Gee - why is it that one of the actual PEACEFUL people had to try and protect a soldier from other "peaceful" passengers?

The truth is coming out slowly but surely - and its proving even more that the use of lethal force was appropriate as a response.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Resorting into judging someone's grammar is the first sign that you don't have anything else to contribute.

Did he ever?

Angus, my comments were not limited to this thread alone - but to the history the two people mentioned have established over time.

You just can't help yourself can you, get yourself to a proper preacher and get him to make your apology to God for lying
It is people like you who mindlessly throw around accusations of anti-semitism every time your arguements fall apart who are one of the real problems Israel and the Jewish people have to face.

Find any comment anywhere by me that can remotely be described as anti-semetic.Then do the same about the alledged anti-americanism.

when I do see it because someone quotes them - then I point out the error in the post and call it like it is.

Yeah like when you said I was being racist ....against the Irish, classic, you really know how to call it like it is.

The act of breaking a military siege is a military act in itself.

But it isn't a military siege is it, due to the legal status of the territory and the nature of the goods in question.

[eskachig]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

MH,
So you really think that the issue of peace and negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians would 100% lead to destruction of Israel etc.? Do you have any concrete proof of this?

I think what he said was that the goal of the activists is destruction of Israel. I don't necessarily think it's false, there is a lot of anti-semitism going on on the pro-Palestinian side, down to the activists on the flotilla singing songs about killing Jews and telling the IDF to "go back to Auswitz" over the radio.

Which is not to say that Israel isn't creating and compounding some of the problems here, or that their actions don't result in suffering for the average Palestinian. For the most part, I find both sides to be equally to blame.

I'm not trying to say that anyone helping the Palestinians is anti-semitic or anything, but a large part of the movement sort of is, and it makes it difficult for Israelis to work with them.

I remember when Arafat died and I was discussing the matter with a Jewish acquaintance of mine who had the rank of captain in reserve in the IDF. He was very scared that now that Arafat has died the Palestinian tide will sweep over Israel etc. etc. And what happened? Nothing really.

Your friend sounds strangely pessimistic. Arafat or not Palestinians have zero chance of any sort of successful military action, whether other nations in the region help them or not. Any sort of serious incursion into Israel proper is unfathomable. If I was him I'd be worried about instability and casualties in Palestinian communities, which sort of did happen.

You see I'm really just in the body counting business. I count bodies. I don't count imaginary bodies, I only count the bodies from our level of existance. It's not like I go to another time space - continuum and find more bodies there, no. I just count the bodies from our world. And Israel really is being the aggressor here and leading the kill count by a mile.

It's interesting. On one hand, Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians (while Palestinians target civilians exclusively), and their actions are mostly reactive. But the nature of Palestinian targets and tactics, combined with Israeli weaponry guarantees collateral damage. What's worse, there is no incentive on the Palestian side to limit civilian casualties as they feed the liberation movement. Israel is almost always acting defensively, but they do kill a lot more Palestinians, while Palestinians launch a lot of attacks at civilians, but usually fail.

However, Israel is responsible for the occupation, so in a larger sense it probably is the aggressor.

But it isn't a military siege is it, due to the legal status of the territory and the nature of the goods in question.

Humanitarian ships that want to cross the blockade are exempt from capture and legitimate aid has to be allowed to reach its target. But to qualify for legal protection a ship must follow certain rules, including obeying traffic directions from Navy vessels. A ship that purports to carry aid but refuses orders to stop can be captured or sunk. The land status of Gaza strip is irrelevant to this issue.