Moving and Shooting - Page 2

sharkbit · 06-03-10, 06:18 PM

With the 3:15 rule, whether you're moving or not doesn't have any effect. It is how far the target moves in that time that matters.
It might make plotting harder if you're using map contacts off though.

Another thing:
The game allows many things that aren't realistic. Stopping while submerged is one of those. Depth control of a submarine is next to impossible without some speed. I limit myself to 2 knots submerged. And nothing over 5-6 knots when using the periscope-too much vibration to make seeing anything possible.

Dissaray · 06-03-10, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggen

This is what I was thinking. But Wazoo has two different ways of getting a targets speed and heading. One is when your U-Boat is moving and one is without it moving. I'm just curious as to the difference. If I am marking its locations every 3:15 on the map, what does it matter if I am moving or not?? It's speed and heading shouldn't change if I am moving, right??

Damn computations...

I read thru that tutorial a while back. The diferance is you have to convert the relitive bearing to target to the bearing relative to true north, in order to get the targets location while effectivly negating your movment.

Hook · 06-03-10, 08:45 PM

Ok, now you have me confused.

If you're plotting a single point on a map, it doesn't matter if you're moving or stationary, or what direction or speed you're moving, the point is still on the same place on the map and doesn't move.

Once you've plotted 3 points 3:15 apart and they're in a reasonably straight line and the same distance apart, you've got the course and speed. If they aren't in a straight enough line or aren't the same distance apart, keep plotting until you've got three that are, as long as the target itself is not trying to evade you but moving in a straight line. If it's already evading, you have other problems.

When I'm plotting my 3 points, I'm often running at ahead full on the surface using the WO's nearest visual contact reports. (Edit to add: I've got map contacts turned off.)

If you're talking about using hydrophone bearings, it's easier to do it while stationary, but it can be done while moving... generally.

Hook

Biggen · 06-04-10, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hook

Ok, now you have me confused.

If you're plotting a single point on a map, it doesn't matter if you're moving or stationary, or what direction or speed you're moving, the point is still on the same place on the map and doesn't move.

Once you've plotted 3 points 3:15 apart and they're in a reasonably straight line and the same distance apart, you've got the course and speed. If they aren't in a straight enough line or aren't the same distance apart, keep plotting until you've got three that are, as long as the target itself is not trying to evade you but moving in a straight line. If it's already evading, you have other problems.

When I'm plotting my 3 points, I'm often running at ahead full on the surface using the WO's nearest visual contact reports. (Edit to add: I've got map contacts turned off.)

If you're talking about using hydrophone bearings, it's easier to do it while stationary, but it can be done while moving... generally.

Hook

If you are confused then I have no hope!

I am in agreement with you, however. I can't quite figure out how me moving will matter when I am trying to determine a targets speed and its movement track. If i use the 3:15 rule, than me moving should have no bearing on whether I can determine its speed.

The same logic should also follow when trying to determine its track. As long as I have marks of the target over time, I should be able to plot it track no matter my movment direction or speed, correct? What does it matter if I am moving if I am plotting points on a map of the target?

Yet there is a whole tutorial on moving while plotting done by Wazoo here: http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/ that looks way over my head.

??

Pisces · 06-04-10, 11:21 AM

Plots with the 3m15s rule are not (in theory) affected by your own movement. If you are stationary then all bearings are plotted from the same place. If you are moving the bearing lines are started all equally displaced point. (and here is where the theory disclaimer comes in) The endpoints, where the target are are also equally displaced according to the target's motion.

But, if you dilly-dally and take your time between range measurements and plotting them on the map then the plot lines are not started from where the range and bearing was measured initially. That's no problem if ALL plot lines are late/displaced equally. In other words late by the same amount of seconds. But if you are quick with one plot, and very late with another then you won't get an accurate target track. The trick is to be consistant. Or average over enough plots.

You can safely make course and speed changes all you want when plotting, aslong as those lines are started from where your uboat was when the rangemeasurement was done. Just don't get sighted in the process.

Your speed and course wil affect the outcome of the speedmeasurement from the notepad-procedure. But that's not plotting, or the 3m15s rule.

Biggen · 06-04-10, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pisces

Plots with the 3m15s rule are not (in theory) affected by your own movement. If you are stationary then all bearings are plotted from the same place. If you are moving the bearing lines are started all equally displaced point. (and here is where the theory disclaimer comes in) The endpoints, where the target are are also equally displaced according to the target's motion.

But, if you dilly-dally and take your time between range measurements and plotting them on the map then the plot lines are not started from where the range and bearing was measured initially. That's no problem if ALL plot lines are late/displaced equally. In other words late by the same amount of seconds. But if you are quick with one plot, and very late with another then you won't get an accurate target track. The trick is to be consistant. Or average over enough plots.

You can safely make course and speed changes all you want when plotting, aslong as those lines are started from where your uboat was when the rangemeasurement was done. Just don't get sighted in the process.

Your speed and course wil affect the outcome of the speedmeasurement from the notepad-procedure. But that's not plotting, or the 3m15s rule.

I figured range would be screwed up if you were moving as it was only valid for that split second when you took it.

So, as it looks to me, my movement shouldn't have any effect on me being able to plot a targets course or gets its speed. Cool!

sharkbit · 06-04-10, 02:52 PM

If you play with map contacts on, it's a piece of cake. Just make your marks, start the watch, and mark the target every 3:15 to get speed and course. The more plots, the better. I try for at least three, preferably four.
You don't have to worry about your own movement/course changes.

If you play with map contacts off, things can get a little hairy. Like Pisces said, your movement will displace your starting points. As long as your end point is displaced an equal amount, no problem. If you're dilly-dallying and get inaccurate starting points, your plot can get off. The key is to mark your sub's position on the nav map when you take your bearing and range and make your plot from there.

Oh by the way....in the mean time you have to con the sub, maintain situational awareness on other ships, set the torpedoes, keep an eye on the stopwatch to see when 3:15 is coming so you don't miss the next plotting point, and muck about the TDC while doing all of this. You and the crew of one. Thank god for the pause button.

I've always thought that the map contacts on/off thing was at two different extremes of realism. On, you have GPS like plots. Off, you have to do everything yourself. The Assisted Plotting Mod ssems to be a nice, workable middle ground.
I've played around with it some but I'm not ready to make that next step yet. I'll stick to playing with map contacts on for now.

Hook · 06-04-10, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggen

Yet there is a whole tutorial on moving while plotting done by Wazoo here: http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/ that looks way over my head.

I think I see the problem. That's a little more complicated than it needs to be. I've never bothered with either my own compass course or the target's.

What I do is, get a range and bearing, then use the protractor tool to draw a line at the correct angle and use the ruler to plot a point at the correct distance. Once that point is on the map, it's valid and doesn't move no matter how I maneuver.

The protractor tool is easier to use if you're following a plotted course, as you have a nice reference line to start with, but can be used by the overlay that appears around your sub in GWX when zoomed in. This is easier to do if the target is on your starboard side. If it's on the port side, you will have to do some arithmetic with the protractor tool.

Edit: And just for fun, let's say I'm not following a plotted course and don't have the overlay when zoomed in, only the sub silhouette. What to do?

Get my course (from the compass, as close as possible, or by whatever other means you can figure out, even from the sub silhouette itself) and draw a line from my sub in that direction. Use that as a reference line. As your sub moves, you can adjust the line to be more accurate.

Hook

Biggen · 06-04-10, 03:40 PM

@sharkbit
I DO play with map contacts on. I don't plan on attempting to play with them off any time soon. Hell, I'm the captain of the boat. I'll let my navigator plot for me!

@Hook
Man, it looks like a lot of work to plot points with map contacts off! But your way sounds a hell-uv-a lot easier than Wazoo's. Getting the range always mystifies me though. There isn't a way to get range without knowing the ship I.D and its mast height is there when the map contacts are off?

sharkbit · 06-04-10, 07:17 PM

[QUOTE=Biggen;1411730There isn't a way to get range without knowing the ship I.D and its mast height is there when the map contacts are off?[/QUOTE]

Try Hitman's GUI 1.0. He doesn't use a split prism stadimeter. Range estimation is done visually based on the size of the object in the field of view of your UZO/scope or using the milliradian scale in same and doing a little maths. He gives some general guidelines on a height to use if you don't know the exact height.

I'm currently using it and getting better at estimating range visually using his aids.

Linky if interested:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=167126

Hook · 06-04-10, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggen

@sharkbit
Getting the range always mystifies me though. There isn't a way to get range without knowing the ship I.D and its mast height is there when the map contacts are off?

When you're on the surface, ask your watch officer to report the nearest visual contact. He'll give you the bearing and range to the nearest 100 meters. He has a rangefinder, you know.

I had better luck in SH2 finding the range to a target using the height of the target in the periscope or UZO, then calculating on a slide rule. I haven't perfected the same technique in SH3 yet. You almost can't get an accurate range in SH3 until the target is too close to use the 3:15 rule.

Hook

06-03-10, 06:18 PM	#16
sharkbit The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,529 Downloads: 334 Uploads: 0	With the 3:15 rule, whether you're moving or not doesn't have any effect. It is how far the target moves in that time that matters. It might make plotting harder if you're using map contacts off though. Another thing: The game allows many things that aren't realistic. Stopping while submerged is one of those. Depth control of a submarine is next to impossible without some speed. I limit myself to 2 knots submerged. And nothing over 5-6 knots when using the periscope-too much vibration to make seeing anything possible. __________________ “Prejudice is blind. There will always be someone who says you aren’t welcome at the table. Stop apologizing for who you are and using all your energy trying to change their minds. Yes, you will lose friends, maybe even family. But you will gain your self-respect. You will know your worth. Once you have that, nothing can stop you.”

06-04-10, 11:21 AM	#20
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	Plots with the 3m15s rule are not (in theory) affected by your own movement. If you are stationary then all bearings are plotted from the same place. If you are moving the bearing lines are started all equally displaced point. (and here is where the theory disclaimer comes in) The endpoints, where the target are are also equally displaced according to the target's motion. But, if you dilly-dally and take your time between range measurements and plotting them on the map then the plot lines are not started from where the range and bearing was measured initially. That's no problem if ALL plot lines are late/displaced equally. In other words late by the same amount of seconds. But if you are quick with one plot, and very late with another then you won't get an accurate target track. The trick is to be consistant. Or average over enough plots. You can safely make course and speed changes all you want when plotting, aslong as those lines are started from where your uboat was when the rangemeasurement was done. Just don't get sighted in the process. Your speed and course wil affect the outcome of the speedmeasurement from the notepad-procedure. But that's not plotting, or the 3m15s rule. __________________ My site downloads: https://ricojansen.nl/downloads

06-04-10, 02:52 PM	#22
sharkbit The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,529 Downloads: 334 Uploads: 0	If you play with map contacts on, it's a piece of cake. Just make your marks, start the watch, and mark the target every 3:15 to get speed and course. The more plots, the better. I try for at least three, preferably four. You don't have to worry about your own movement/course changes. If you play with map contacts off, things can get a little hairy. Like Pisces said, your movement will displace your starting points. As long as your end point is displaced an equal amount, no problem. If you're dilly-dallying and get inaccurate starting points, your plot can get off. The key is to mark your sub's position on the nav map when you take your bearing and range and make your plot from there. Oh by the way....in the mean time you have to con the sub, maintain situational awareness on other ships, set the torpedoes, keep an eye on the stopwatch to see when 3:15 is coming so you don't miss the next plotting point, and muck about the TDC while doing all of this. You and the crew of one. Thank god for the pause button. I've always thought that the map contacts on/off thing was at two different extremes of realism. On, you have GPS like plots. Off, you have to do everything yourself. The Assisted Plotting Mod ssems to be a nice, workable middle ground. I've played around with it some but I'm not ready to make that next step yet. I'll stick to playing with map contacts on for now. __________________ “Prejudice is blind. There will always be someone who says you aren’t welcome at the table. Stop apologizing for who you are and using all your energy trying to change their minds. Yes, you will lose friends, maybe even family. But you will gain your self-respect. You will know your worth. Once you have that, nothing can stop you.”

06-04-10, 07:17 PM	#25
sharkbit The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,529 Downloads: 334 Uploads: 0	[QUOTE=Biggen;1411730There isn't a way to get range without knowing the ship I.D and its mast height is there when the map contacts are off?[/QUOTE] Try Hitman's GUI 1.0. He doesn't use a split prism stadimeter. Range estimation is done visually based on the size of the object in the field of view of your UZO/scope or using the milliradian scale in same and doing a little maths. He gives some general guidelines on a height to use if you don't know the exact height. I'm currently using it and getting better at estimating range visually using his aids. Linky if interested: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=167126 __________________ “Prejudice is blind. There will always be someone who says you aren’t welcome at the table. Stop apologizing for who you are and using all your energy trying to change their minds. Yes, you will lose friends, maybe even family. But you will gain your self-respect. You will know your worth. Once you have that, nothing can stop you.”

06-03-10, 08:45 PM	#18
Hook Bosun Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 63 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Ok, now you have me confused. If you're plotting a single point on a map, it doesn't matter if you're moving or stationary, or what direction or speed you're moving, the point is still on the same place on the map and doesn't move. Once you've plotted 3 points 3:15 apart and they're in a reasonably straight line and the same distance apart, you've got the course and speed. If they aren't in a straight enough line or aren't the same distance apart, keep plotting until you've got three that are, as long as the target itself is not trying to evade you but moving in a straight line. If it's already evading, you have other problems. When I'm plotting my 3 points, I'm often running at ahead full on the surface using the WO's nearest visual contact reports. (Edit to add: I've got map contacts turned off.) If you're talking about using hydrophone bearings, it's easier to do it while stationary, but it can be done while moving... generally. Hook

06-04-10, 03:40 PM	#24
Biggen Watch Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 16 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	@sharkbit I DO play with map contacts on. I don't plan on attempting to play with them off any time soon. Hell, I'm the captain of the boat. I'll let my navigator plot for me! @Hook Man, it looks like a lot of work to plot points with map contacts off! But your way sounds a hell-uv-a lot easier than Wazoo's. Getting the range always mystifies me though. There isn't a way to get range without knowing the ship I.D and its mast height is there when the map contacts are off?