Moving and Shooting

[Biggen]

Originally Posted by Pisces

After you make a course change, then the AOB setting is not valid anymore. If you turn onto a leading course (ahead of his bow), then the bearing he is shown at moves away from the bow since you want to keep looking at it. The AOB get's updated because of the bearing change when set to auto-update mode. You'll see that the AOB get's updated to a smaller number, but in the view it still has the same angle. (assuming the turn didn't take too long for him to get that much closer) Smaller AOB angle means also less leading angle by the torpedo due to the math-formula behind it. Hence it lags behind.

After every leading turn, and getting him back in view, you need to increase the AOB setting (away from the bow) by the same amount as the course change.

After every lagging turn (you turn to his tail side), and getting him back in view, the resulting AOB is bigger, and needs to be reduced (towards the bow) by the same amout as the course change.

If the turn was large enough for you to need to set the pointer beyond 180 degrees on the other side then do so.

Still, moving forward while doing the speed measurement can seriously affect the results. But I understood you did the measurements while stationary. Speed from stationary measurements are good. Just remember that you need to do a last range measurement as that one is not updated and definately different after a course change and some time passing until firing. However as said, with zero gyro angle range doesn't matter. (If the AOB setting is correct in the first place. )

Apart from that, when you are allready behind him (AOB looks greater than 90 degrees) AND submerged then you'll never catch up with him. He's much faster on the surface than you are submerged. If you really need to stay in his front quarters, then put him on your 90/270 line, and keep it there constantly. That's the simplest way to come/keep ahead. But no garantuee of succes. He might still be too fast. Just continue until you are on the edge of visibility and then surface. Then with your much higher flank speed you should be able to get around him.

Wow, great information! It was probably me changing course AND an incorrect range that was throwing off my shots. I was thinking that AoB updates automatically, but it only updates automatically when turning the scope, NOT when turning the boat.

So as I understand it correctly, as long as the gyro angle is zero, range doesn't matter. Correct?

I always seem to be behind the target and trying to play catch-up for some reason. If this happens again, I'll try putting him on my 90/270, running out the edge, surfacing and then turning parallel to overtake him. That is a great idea.

I'm still trying to get a handle on AoB, but I must admit it I can never remember which way to turn the damn AoB dial when I figure out AoB. I typically have to look at my TDC map to determine if my shot will be behind or in front of the target. If it is behind, I know I turned the dial the wrong way.

As far as taking speed and heading of a target, I do do it from moving. Will this throw of my measurements as well? I use the 3:15 minute rule to determine speed. I like to use this instead of fixed line as I also get a rough approximation of the heading of the target when I make my second mark when 3:15 is up. This a bad idea?

[Dissaray]

Just look at the red and green sections of the AOB dial, that is how I figure it out. The green is for when you are on the starbord, right, side of the target and the red is for when you are on the port, left, side of the target.

If you find your self behind a target and can't find your way around to the front without giving your self away or escorts make this problamatic you can still kill the target with ease. Though the accuracy of your data is paramount for this work. When you ID your target you can find the depth of the keel in your target recognition manual, the number is generaly diferant for every ship. Simply set your torpido's running depth to about 1m lower than the value given in the manual, so if the keel is at 6.5m set for between 7.5 and 8. Then make sure your torpido is set up with a magnetic pistol, by defult they all should be, and let fly with your shot, well swim but you get the idea. The torpido will cruse in right underneeth the target and blow up somewhere underneeth it. This causes herendous damage to your target and negates the need for a 90deg shot in most situations; though the 90deg is still your best bet for a good hit.

As for 90deg shots, range isn't all that important, as long as the target is inside around 1500m. The only time range realy matters is when your are realy close to bow on or stern on with your target, your extreem AOBs.

The speed measuring with the map, the 3:15 method, your speed dosen't effect your results. At least not as far as I can tell. It is beacouse you are measuring the target's movment relitive to the Earth and not the target's movment relitive to you; at least that is how I understand it to work.

[Biggen]

Originally Posted by Dissaray

The speed measuring with the map, the 3:15 method, your speed dosen't effect your results. At least not as far as I can tell. It is beacouse you are measuring the target's movment relitive to the Earth and not the target's movment relitive to you; at least that is how I understand it to work.

This is what I was thinking. But Wazoo has two different ways of getting a targets speed and heading. One is when your U-Boat is moving and one is without it moving. I'm just curious as to the difference. If I am marking its locations every 3:15 on the map, what does it matter if I am moving or not?? It's speed and heading shouldn't change if I am moving, right??

Damn computations...

[Dissaray]

Originally Posted by Biggen

This is what I was thinking. But Wazoo has two different ways of getting a targets speed and heading. One is when your U-Boat is moving and one is without it moving. I'm just curious as to the difference. If I am marking its locations every 3:15 on the map, what does it matter if I am moving or not?? It's speed and heading shouldn't change if I am moving, right??

Damn computations...

I read thru that tutorial a while back. The diferance is you have to convert the relitive bearing to target to the bearing relative to true north, in order to get the targets location while effectivly negating your movment.

[Hook]

Ok, now you have me confused.

If you're plotting a single point on a map, it doesn't matter if you're moving or stationary, or what direction or speed you're moving, the point is still on the same place on the map and doesn't move.

Once you've plotted 3 points 3:15 apart and they're in a reasonably straight line and the same distance apart, you've got the course and speed. If they aren't in a straight enough line or aren't the same distance apart, keep plotting until you've got three that are, as long as the target itself is not trying to evade you but moving in a straight line. If it's already evading, you have other problems.

When I'm plotting my 3 points, I'm often running at ahead full on the surface using the WO's nearest visual contact reports. (Edit to add: I've got map contacts turned off.)

If you're talking about using hydrophone bearings, it's easier to do it while stationary, but it can be done while moving... generally.

Hook

[Biggen]

Originally Posted by Hook

Ok, now you have me confused.

If you're plotting a single point on a map, it doesn't matter if you're moving or stationary, or what direction or speed you're moving, the point is still on the same place on the map and doesn't move.

Once you've plotted 3 points 3:15 apart and they're in a reasonably straight line and the same distance apart, you've got the course and speed. If they aren't in a straight enough line or aren't the same distance apart, keep plotting until you've got three that are, as long as the target itself is not trying to evade you but moving in a straight line. If it's already evading, you have other problems.

When I'm plotting my 3 points, I'm often running at ahead full on the surface using the WO's nearest visual contact reports. (Edit to add: I've got map contacts turned off.)

If you're talking about using hydrophone bearings, it's easier to do it while stationary, but it can be done while moving... generally.

Hook

If you are confused then I have no hope!

I am in agreement with you, however. I can't quite figure out how me moving will matter when I am trying to determine a targets speed and its movement track. If i use the 3:15 rule, than me moving should have no bearing on whether I can determine its speed.

The same logic should also follow when trying to determine its track. As long as I have marks of the target over time, I should be able to plot it track no matter my movment direction or speed, correct? What does it matter if I am moving if I am plotting points on a map of the target?

Yet there is a whole tutorial on moving while plotting done by Wazoo here: http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/ that looks way over my head.

??

[Pisces]

Plots with the 3m15s rule are not (in theory) affected by your own movement. If you are stationary then all bearings are plotted from the same place. If you are moving the bearing lines are started all equally displaced point. (and here is where the theory disclaimer comes in) The endpoints, where the target are are also equally displaced according to the target's motion.

But, if you dilly-dally and take your time between range measurements and plotting them on the map then the plot lines are not started from where the range and bearing was measured initially. That's no problem if ALL plot lines are late/displaced equally. In other words late by the same amount of seconds. But if you are quick with one plot, and very late with another then you won't get an accurate target track. The trick is to be consistant. Or average over enough plots.

You can safely make course and speed changes all you want when plotting, aslong as those lines are started from where your uboat was when the rangemeasurement was done. Just don't get sighted in the process.

Your speed and course wil affect the outcome of the speedmeasurement from the notepad-procedure. But that's not plotting, or the 3m15s rule.

[Hook]

Originally Posted by Biggen

Yet there is a whole tutorial on moving while plotting done by Wazoo here: http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/ that looks way over my head.

I think I see the problem. That's a little more complicated than it needs to be. I've never bothered with either my own compass course or the target's.

What I do is, get a range and bearing, then use the protractor tool to draw a line at the correct angle and use the ruler to plot a point at the correct distance. Once that point is on the map, it's valid and doesn't move no matter how I maneuver.

The protractor tool is easier to use if you're following a plotted course, as you have a nice reference line to start with, but can be used by the overlay that appears around your sub in GWX when zoomed in. This is easier to do if the target is on your starboard side. If it's on the port side, you will have to do some arithmetic with the protractor tool.

Edit: And just for fun, let's say I'm not following a plotted course and don't have the overlay when zoomed in, only the sub silhouette. What to do?

Get my course (from the compass, as close as possible, or by whatever other means you can figure out, even from the sub silhouette itself) and draw a line from my sub in that direction. Use that as a reference line. As your sub moves, you can adjust the line to be more accurate.

Hook

[Kpt. Weyprecht]

Originally Posted by Biggen

I was thinking that AoB updates automatically, but it only updates automatically when turning the scope, NOT when turning the boat.

I should have been clearer. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Biggen

So as I understand it correctly, as long as the gyro angle is zero, range doesn't matter. Correct?

That's it. The best way to achieve this is to calculate (plot) the target's course and to take the right position in advance. Then, you can either use a one of the lead angle tables, or use the TDC: you entre the data that you know by plottind. The scope/UZO must be pointing 0°, then you adjust the AOB to the value it will have when the target will be crossing the axe of your boat, i. e. at the moment of it's death. For a 90° shot, it will be 90°. Just avoid confusing boards... Then you can turn the auto-update back ON and turn the scope towards the coming target till the indicated gyroangle is 0°.

Originally Posted by Biggen

I always seem to be behind the target and trying to play catch-up for some reason. If this happens again, I'll try putting him on my 90/270, running out the edge, surfacing and then turning parallel to overtake him. That is a great idea.

Getting to the right position seems to be actually the hardest part of it all.

Originally Posted by Biggen

As far as taking speed and heading of a target, I do do it from moving. Will this throw of my measurements as well? I use the 3:15 minute rule to determine speed. I like to use this instead of fixed line as I also get a rough approximation of the heading of the target when I make my second mark when 3:15 is up. This a bad idea?

It isn't a bad idea and tactics-wise it's necessary. Remember than a real boat could never stay motionless, end they couldn't come to a dead stop submerged since they mould lose fine control of the depth. But I'm not sure if it is compatible with the 3.15 minutes rule.
Again, I strongly suggest using the mighty MoBo which allows you to do some relative plotting. Everything is fine as long as you move with a constant speed and course.

Your plotting may never be very precise (because of aur tools) if you take but two marks. Try some longer observations: I usually try to have at least three or four marks, taken with 5 minutes intervals rather than 3 minutes, and the target's vector is always calculated between the first and the last mark. This allows you to have a good solution in spite of errors in the measures since tese inaccuracies become statistically unimportant over a long distance.
Of course this requires you to stalk the target during some time and is most rewarding for night surface operations. But this is right: that's how most sinkings in early war were done.

Fette Beute!

[sharkbit]

Getting to the right position seems to be actually the hardest part of it all.

One of my favorite quotes, something I keep in mind in SH3/SH4, is from Edward L. Beach's "Run Silent, Run Deep":

Unfortuneately, I'm at work and don't have the book in front of me but basically it is.....

"Dammit Rich, anybody can shoot torpedoes and hit the target. The hard part is getting in front of the target to shoot." Or something like that.

(I'll have to find the exact quote when I get home tonight, but that is it in a nutshell.)

Except in desperation, a shot with much more than a 120 degree AOB is probably a waste of torpedoes unless you are at point blank range, and even then.....
I'll take the time to do another end around if I can to set up another shot where my chance of sucess is greater. If it takes 8 hours to do it, so be it.

Probably the greatest amount of time I spend in setting up an approach to a target is information gathering and getting ahead of the target.

[sharkbit]

With the 3:15 rule, whether you're moving or not doesn't have any effect. It is how far the target moves in that time that matters.
It might make plotting harder if you're using map contacts off though.

Another thing:
The game allows many things that aren't realistic. Stopping while submerged is one of those. Depth control of a submarine is next to impossible without some speed. I limit myself to 2 knots submerged. And nothing over 5-6 knots when using the periscope-too much vibration to make seeing anything possible.