Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[Skybird]

It was a mistake to let the so-called activists leave Israel - the crew of the Rachel Corrie said they have enough funding in their movement to already having become busy to assemble a second, even bigger fleet, and that they again want to board the ships in order - so they explicitly said - to break the blockade. you can offer them first class express delivery via land route, they will not accept it. there is a chance that Turkey will officially fund and support it. Which borders an open war declaration against Israel in my understanding, since Turkey knows there is a blockade in place.

That those 10,000 tons of cement the confiscated five ships had loaded, amongst other goods, are to be used to build more Hamas bunker networks like those the Israelis already had so much trouble with in Southern Lebanon, and that Hamas demands to be in control, of distributing the medical drugs and items so that it can boost it'S popularity with palestinians, so far nobody of these activists showed any care for.

Meanwhile Israeli media reveal that the intel situation was sub-optimal, to say the least, and that they had expected only light or no resistence (I wonder why). Video released this morning plays communications of surprised soldiers who reported that they were under live fire from all directions, and that every member of the boarding team was waited for by an orgainsed lynch mob.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177229

The following is a transcript of the dialogue heard in the IDF clip:

- I need reinforcements here with me
- He wants to pass underneath
- Wait, one is in front of me
- It's coming from all directions
- We need to be evacuated, now
- Tell him that he's close already-
- Real weapons, real weapons (ie.guns)
- They have real weapons?
- Yes, yes, real weapons
- They are firing on us
- There is live fire below
- Live fire below
- Live fire here
- Shoot him where is he?
- Negative

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177186

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...tilla-1.293748

Israel is with its back against the wall. Either it accepts terrorism striking Israel again several times per day and Hamas boosting it's position amongst Palestinians, or it directly fuels the international antisemitism by defending itself - and Hamas again boosting it'S popularity.

Hamas must go. This can only be acchieved by Palestinians sending it to hell themselves(unlikely), or Israel destroying Gaza completely and by that: Hamas as well (difficult). Having Obama in the WH, does not help the situation, of course. Yesterday I read that the WH tries to support coups to overthrow the current Israeli government. Slowly but surely I really become furious about this wellmeaning dilletantic dreamer being so very much in denial of realities.

Regarding Turkey, I can give Israel only one advise: ignore it, do not trust it, don't let Turkey influence your decisions.

Originally Posted by Castout

Try saying that if you were born a Palestinian. Nobody chooses to what country they belong to.

If your country just wants to add Gaza to its territory then say so explicitly. I'll like your country even more because it's honest on its intentions.

But punishing civilians is an act of cowardice and gets Israel no points.
And not all Palestinians are participating actively or passively to destroy Israel or wants to harm its people. Most civilians are helpless people just wanting to get by and have a peaceful life. They don't choose where they are born into and they don't have access to be granted other nationalities either. And despite the way Israeli govt may treat them they are as humane as any other Israelis.

The Nazis thought Jews were despicable too and did their best to get rid of them. I despise Nazis because they failed to see Jewish people or any other group of people as being as humane as them.

Sure the Israeli commandos were attacked abroad the ships they landed on but they had the rights to do that as it was done IN international waters and translated to piracy. That was not exercising the state sovereignty. Did Israel first declare that 65 km off the coast of Gaza as a no shipping zone?

Don`t you get tired of this sometimes? In what way exactly do you want me to treat people who don`t work (working man have no time to hate) and live under my taxes, and for a nice payback they send a rocket party?
O wait.... you just have to mention Nazis, its a must . In fact i find a deep connection between nazis and your post. Zero arguments

I'll like your country even more because it's honest on its intentions

And "honest" means those who swallow your pile of twisted lies? I can say the same about almost any nationalistic politic party.. They are all so pure and honest.

[Bilge_Rat]

great thread, good posts by everyone.

lets step back a second and look at this micro to semi-macro, without going all the way back to 1947.

1. the boarding: everyone agrees it was not handled well, poor intelligence, poor planning and people died. It should never have happened and hopefully when the Rachel Corrie is stopped, it wont.

2. the decision to board: that is a no brainer, once the decision is made to have a blockade, you have no choice but to enforce it, which includes stopping ships which try to force it and not submit to a search. Any naval power on earth enforcing a blockade would do exactly the same thing.

3. should we have a Blockade? that is a more thorny question which is tied in with how do you deal with Hamas. Israel has tried various methods to deal with Gaza and/or Hamas: military occupation (pre-2005), unilateral pullout including removing Israeli settlers (2005), negotiated ceasefires (2009 and 2010), military offensive (2009), indirect negotiations with Hamas through Egypt and Germany, none have worked.

If Hamas would act as a responsible power and prevent the launching of attacks on Israel from its territory, we could have a deal. Israel has made deals with terrorist organizations before, namely Arafat's PLO, but how do you deal with a government that does not recognize your right to exist and encourages or actively launches military weapons at your territory?

The Blockade, where basic hunanitarian aid, such as food and medicine is let through, but weapons are stopped, appears to be the only practical and least destructive alternative. It is not the perfect solution. Everyone realizes it is a blunt instrument, but the only other option is to do nothing and hope Hamas will realize it is doing a bad thing.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Torpedo the damned thing and be done with it.

I was thinking the same for two days.

[Oberon]

The blockade is needed, otherwise Syria and Iran would ship god knows what into Gaza, and since Israels navy isn't as big as the US navy, they can't stop and search every nook of every single ship that heads for Gaza.
The only concern I have is whether enough aid is getting to Gaza, although, like with many nations in disarray, even if aid does get to Gaza it would likely wind up in the hands of Hamas and not the people.
It's damn tricky...damn tricky indeed, and it'll happen again and again until the objective of isolating Israel from the world is achieved. That's the corner...and that's a bloody dangerous place to put a nation, particularly one with nuclear weapons. Iran and North Korea are different, Iran has Russia to ensure its continued survival and the knowledge that it has a vast area to conquer and contain if anyone tried to invade. North Korea has China on side to keep it safe from the world. But Israel...Israel is surrounded by nations who want to destroy it, and the only thing keeping them from doing so is the United States and the knowledge that if Israel knows that all hope is lost, it will launch everything it has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

There is a good quote from an Israeli general Moshe Dayan:

"Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Do North Korean commissars qualify as "authority figures" who can bust into your house on a hunch and shoot you to death?

Yes... If you are off the coast of North Korea (in either domestic or international waters) and a North Korean Commissar boards you, whether you like it or not he DOES qualify as an authority figure... though i think one would have a hard time busting into my house as you keep insisting... then again i dont live on a boat 15 miles off the coast of NK.

I have to say though... if im in international waters conducting a geological survey - they wouldn't have the right to board me anyway...

BUT

if i am in international waters with the clearly stated intention of sailing into one of their port cities for the purpose of - say - exploding a bomb, or smuggling contraband or some other illegal purpose... then hell yes, in that case they have the right and the authority to try and stop me.

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Video released this morning plays communications of surprised soldiers who reported that they were under live fire from all directions

And where are those guns now pray tell? How about the ammo? How about the shell casings?

Israel is with its back against the wall. Either it accepts terrorism striking Israel again several times per day and Hamas boosting it's position amongst Palestinians, or it directly fuels the international antisemitism by defending itself - and Hamas again boosting it'S popularity.

False dichotomy. If Israel got serious about peace and not making "facts on the ground", and if the US showed it could be a neutral partner and actually hold all sides accountable for once, who knows what would happen.

Regarding Turkey, I can give Israel only one advise: ignore it, do not trust it, don't let Turkey influence your decisions.

That's right Israel, continue to thumb your nose at the world (all criticism stems from anti-semitism, you see). It's working out so well.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Yes... If you are off the coast of North Korea (in either domestic or international waters) and a North Korean Commissar boards you, whether you like it or not he DOES qualify as an authority figure... though i think one would have a hard time busting into my house as you keep insisting... then again i dont live on a boat 15 miles off the coast of NK.

I have to say though... if im in international waters conducting a geological survey - they wouldn't have the right to board me anyway...

BUT

if i am in international waters with the clearly stated intention of sailing into one of their port cities for the purpose of - say - exploding a bomb, or smuggling contraband or some other illegal purpose... then hell yes, in that case they have the right and the authority to try and stop me.

This is what you do if you are boarded by North Koreans in international waters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_(AGER-2)

you submit peacefully and let the governments work it out.

Originally Posted by Happy Times

I was thinking the same for two days.

Easy for you and GR to say something like that but it would be Israel who would have to carry the responsiblity for it. How about you two go and do it yourselves, I don't think the Israelis want to take orders from you two.

[Weiss Pinguin]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Easy for you and GR to say something like that but it would be Israel who would have to carry the responsiblity for it. How about you two go and do it yourselves, I don't think the Israelis want to take orders from you two.

You know there's a funny picture thread as well Weiss Pinguin.

Hope the Israelis didn't put a bullit into this old ladies head.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/...onvoy/?ref=rss

[Safe-Keeper]

The level of condemnation of this incident is frankly astounding. Is it really that hard for people to take a step back, check out the facts, and then form an opinion+

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Hope the Israelis didn't put a bullit into this old ladies head.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/...onvoy/?ref=rss

Awww, here comes the media trying to make people sympathetic towards the "peace activists". She knew where the vessel was going and what they were doing.

[Safe-Keeper]

That's nothing, another activist reportedly brought her one-year old infant on board.

Running naval blockades -- fun for the whole family!

:hurl:

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

That's nothing, another activist reportedly brought her one-year old infant on board.

Running naval blockades -- fun for the whole family!

:hurl:

Was the baby guilty of beating up Israeli commandos?