Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[Cambaz]

And also Skybird you are %100 right about AKP issues and your advice is given to us many years ago by M. Kemal ATATURK but again I am telling as a member of armed forces in my country no one can able to change the rules and orders given by M. Kemal ATATURK... but Israel over reacted

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Cambaz

you are missing a important point in here AKP in NOT TURKIYE I did not choose them, can you believe a person that says "The mosques are our barracks, the minarets are our bayonets, the domes are our helmets and the faithful are our soldiers."yes I accept ignorance and darkness in a high level in my country but this does not means Turkiye is a Rogue country and guilty please stop it...

I see the numerical relation between relgious conservatives and the somewhat "modernised burgoisie" different thahn you, then. The perception when just looking at the huge cities, necessarily is misleading, since it is only a small fraction living there, around 20% or less. and even in the cities, the AKP-critcial camp is not stronger than 40-50%. The nation-wide majority of the population lives in the poor rural areas, and there religious conservatism was extremely high 15 years ago, I saw it everywhere, and there must be a reason why protests against the AKP focusses on the cities, but is only rarely, if ever, to be seen in the rural areas.

The power of the AKP lies not in the cities, but in the rural areas with the majority of the Turkish population, and with claiming political protection of democratic principles for a project of re-establishing stronger islamic authority again in order to then overcome these democratic structures.

Islam and it'S orthodxy slept for some decades, during the Attatürk experiment, as I call it. It never was truly gone or truly reduced, it just kept out of sight while the pressure on it was high. Now, when the cultural climate changed with the AKP's victory, it has woken up again and claims for itself again what it always saw as it'S own: the legitimate control over the fate of theTurkish people, the dominance of religion over the political dimension of the state. and Erdoghan himself, I am very sure, dreams of fulfilling with politics and demographics what the Osman empire failed to achieve with war and conquest: bringing europe under the influence of Islam, with Turkey as the priviliged envoy, and using european poltiicians of turksih origin as trojan horses to enforce Turkish interest in their hosting nations' inner policies. I remind you of that secret conference that Erdoghan had hosted some weeks ago and where he assembled turkish migrants who hold political offices i European nations.

For fairness and deserved credit I must point out that the Turkish-German politicians he invited refused to come and instead were sending back some very sounding and indignant replies. But many influential Turkish-German entrepreneurs accepted nevertheless, many with ties to - surprise surprise - Milli Görus.

[Oberon]

The separation of religion and the state, Ataturk did a lot for Turkey, it's a shame to see some of the secularism which so underpinned Kermalism start to slide in recent years.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Cambaz

And also Skybird you are %100 right about AKP issues and your advice is given to us many years ago by M. Kemal ATATURK but again I am telling as a member of armed forces in my country no one can able to change the rules and orders given by M. Kemal ATATURK...

No? the AKP has seized the most important and highest political offices in your country. They work on getting the power to chnage the constitution. By the valid laws of your country, Erdoghan should not be president, but should be in jail, but he isn't - why? The structure and the offices of your national leadership, and the administrational level, slowly but constantly get eroded and stripped of the intentions Atatürk's political vision of secularism. Islamic views creep in everywhere, you can already see it in the ratio between males and females beign selected for higher offices in the administration and public service. The pressure by the EU for "reforms" additionally erodes the safeguarding function of the military, and the High Court. I agree that Ataturk's Turkey was no truly democratic Turkey, and today much of the portest against the AKP derives from those social camps that have most to lose from the kemalistic elites loosing power. But still, that way turkey still was lightyears better off than if it becomes what the AKP tries to turn it into. Also it is a better neighbour for europe. We should focus on trade and by that lift the living conditions for the rural population (nowhere in Europe I saw so much poverty and misery than in Anatolia, it is a hard life there). But I honestly think we should leave it to doing that. Often, peaceful coexistence is not best served when trying to deny differences, but when accepting them.

but Israel over reacted

Ignoring the way the mission went, and focussing on the fact that they decided for the raid - what would have been the alternative? Aerial bombardement? Naval torpedoing? Hardly. Lifting the blockade? Unacceptable. The only alternative would have been the israeli offer to clear the goods in Aschdod and then deliver them from there via land route to Gaza, after having been controlled for weapons, terrorists and goods of military use for Hamas. And this the organisersa denied days before, and the denied again in that radio communication in that night just before the raid.

A blockade is a blockade. It is not there for no reason, but to prevent items that could make military use to Israel'S enemy-in-war, the Hamas, reaching Hamas.

---

You are not with the Turkish submarine force, by chance? I once knew a guy at university, who had served on a Turkish sub. Another Turkish guy who accompanied me on some of my travels in the ME was with the Turkish navy, too, but I did never know what exactly he did. And last, I strayed into Wing Tsun for short time when studying in Osnabrück in the 90s, he was from Turkey too, and years later went back there and I think he became trainer of your national team, at least so I was told.

[Stealth Hunter]

Apparently a good deal of the Israelis decided they'd celebrate the attack in front of the Turkish embassy in Tel Aviv.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

[MH]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

Apparently a good deal of the Israelis decided they'd celebrate the attack in front of the Turkish embassy in Tel Aviv.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

Sure Israel celebrates all others demonstrate for human rights with hammas and hizbala flags.....

[Skybird]

As stupid a provocative idea as is the Turkish protest in front of the israeli embassy in Turkey.

Possibly Erdoghan's drooling lament from Turkey and a growing attitude of corral mentality in Israel are causing this stunt.

The only alternative would have been that the israeli offer to clear the goods in Aschdod and then deliver them from there via land route to Gaza. And this the organisersa denied days before, and the denied again in that radio communication in that night just before the raid.

And the issue is that the limits on the amount of trucks it permits and the amount of crossings it will allow to be used means that Israel is not allowing even the stated minimum aid requirements to be shipped through.
Which means what Sky describes as the only alternative is in no way a viable alternative.

A blockade is a blockade. It is not there for no reason, but to prevent items that could make military use to Israel'S enemy-in-war, the Hamas, reaching Hamas.

Yes, chocolate is a very handy weapon for a terrorist
Hamas is the only entity in Gaza that benefits from the blockade and now they have also benefited from the fallout from Israels fiasco of sheer idiocy.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Skybird

As stupid a provocative idea as is the Turkish protest in front of the israeli embassy in Turkey.

Possibly Erdoghan's drooling lament from Turkey and a growing attitude of corral mentality in Israel are causing this stunt.

Corral mentality it might be....the funny thing is Israel is now spending billion of dollars for research on weapons which could stop 100$ missiles which are inbound from Gaza.
Just yesterday they(hammas) tried to shoot a few to celebrate their political victory but Israeli Air force got them first.
The living condition in Gaza are hard because hammas wants them to be...
In the Judea aeria where Fatah is in control living condition are very good.(Fatah got kicked out of Gaza by hammas extremists)
Try visiting Rammala and you will see nightclubs and restaurants open and people living their own lives.

[heartc]

300. Three Hundred. I think it was an interesting movie. In some way, it was Hollywood all the way, but in another way, I really thought it was done well.

Three Hundred. Replies.
Al Qaeda, or the various outfits thereof, are killing hundreds of people / year. Islamists are blowing up innocent citizens who want to do nothing else but partake in elections, pursue business, or do not want to cloth themselves in burkas. I know of an Afghani women, who immigrated to Germany. A femal friend of her decided to stay in Afghanistan. That friend of her only last year was shot in the streets in daylight by Taliban / Taliban sympathizers. Her crime? Pursuing education.
North Korea is executing or throwing into prison dozens of people / year, where there will be now way out, for political dissent. Hell, people in Europe get assassinated by fundamental hitmen for pursuing freedom of speech or painting funny cartoons. Pol Pot killed hundreds of thousands of people for having "no use" for them in his "Hour Zero" policy of his agricultural utopia.

Yet, now "teh Jooooooos" "did it". Or maybe not, but whether they are really at fault or not - doesn't matter. No need to even wait for any further investigations. As soon as "teh Joooooos" "did it", let's have a thread with THREE HUNDRED replies IN NO TIME.

But you know what is really good about that? It's that all the people who say the Bible is a book of fairy tales, are being hit in the face by such irrational hysteria. Reactions like these are nothing else than proof for a deep, unwarranted, otherwordly hatred, recognizable as such because it is beyond any proportionality or common sense. It is not justified by events, but - while spilling from peoples' mouth - is coming from a source that is situated in a far deeper darkness, only waiting to spill over on whatever chance that presents itself. Think about it.
Maybe it really is as it must be. As it has been since ages, and as it is written down and foreseen in the Holy Bible. Just fairy tales. I know.
So let's wait for the next thread that makes 300 replies within a few 2 days or something, and which is not about Jews. Yeah...

didn't think so. Maybe if there are some really big boobs in it and Dowly is around. Otherwise - "not a snowball's chance in hell", as the Americans like to say.

An interesting viewpoint heartc.
But you miss the issue entirely, this 65 year long mess regarding the former mandated territories just happens to be a huge issue that resonates across the globe due to the frequent impact it has on entirely unrelated countries.
The mess in the middle east is such a big topic because it is such a big and widespread event, which is why this debate can grow so quickly.

[Zachstar]

Israel has completely ruined its PR with this move. Today even BBC and other major news outlets are talking about viewpoints from the passengers who say not only were white flags up but commandoes opened fire from the helos themselves. With the military already caught in lies about this it makes their "defense only" talk sound as true as those who say we diddnt land on the moon.

Now Egypt is opening its border with Gaza in retaliation meaning Israel has ZERO control now on what flows into Gaza. Now its going to be forced to lift the blockade and walk away with egg on its face again.

They HAVE to stop giving their enemies PR ammo to use against them.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

An interesting viewpoint heartc.
But you miss the issue entirely, this 65 year long mess regarding the former mandated territories just happens to be a huge issue that resonates across the globe due to the frequent impact it has on entirely unrelated countries.
The mess in the middle east is such a big topic because it is such a big and widespread event, which is why this debate can grow so quickly.

I don't necessary share the biblical point of view but this conflict is much more than a fight for scrap of desert.
Israel is western oriented non muslim culture in middle of Arab world.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

An interesting viewpoint heartc.
But you miss the issue entirely, this 65 year long mess regarding the former mandated territories just happens to be a huge issue that resonates across the globe due to the frequent impact it has on entirely unrelated countries.
The mess in the middle east is such a big topic because it is such a big and widespread event, which is why this debate can grow so quickly.

Thanks for your considerate response. But I think you are missing my point entirely. Which is that the "long mess" is a lot "longer" than 65 years.

Look at it: India and Pakistan are conducting themselves as sworn enemies and they both are even in possession of nuclear weapons. You would think that dispute should be much higher on the agenda of "unrelated" countries, no? No, it isn't. Because there are no Jews to be found in it. So there is no motivation for the blame game taking place in those unrelated countries. Countries which used to say the Jooooooooos are poisoning the water supplies.

[msxyz]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Bwahhhh ha ha ha.. erm okay if you say so.

I would say there agent provocateurs.

You must live in a very quiet place.

Over the years I've seeny mobs burning cars along the streets, breaking windows and attacking policemen with molotov cocktails, maces and other improvised weapons.

True: there are a few "professional" provocateurs among them. You can usually spot them easily because they have their faces covered and sometimes they even wear gas masks so that the tear gases don't affect them. But nobody ever thinks of using lethal force against them.

You can charge them, spray them with water or an irritating agent, use disabling gases or beat them to pulp...

But the very moment some of them hit the bucket, whether by accident or -worse- because some policemen uses a service weapon, they're turned into martyrs.

Modern society has its rules. You may argue that we've grown overcomplacent to mass hysteria phenomena like violent protesting but you cannot simply choose to ignore said rules. One of these rules is that "law" is supposed to lead by example, not to trade an eye for an eye.