Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

nothing we did not know already.

Rules are rules, and subsim.com even does not have many. But at least those few rules there are, should be enforced. Disagreement and criticism is one thing, but hate speech like shown here is prohibited by the rules of this forum, simply that, and OTH additionally is a repeated, a frequent, a regular offender having just served another brig time and having displayed his extreme views of Germans (=Nazis) and Jews and Israelis (=bloodthirsty monsters) repeatedly, making his unacceptable behavior a habit .

A forum endlessly tolerating such behavior, does not gain something from doing so, but looses something. even more so when the offender never showed the smallest tendency to change himself for the better.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Rules are rules, and subsim.com even does not have many. But at least those few rules there are, should be enforced. Disagreement and criticism is one thing, but hate speech like shown here is prohibited by the rules of this forum, simply that, and OTH additionally is a repeated, a frequent, a regular offender having just served another brig time and having displayed his extreme views of Germans (=Nazis) and Jews and Israelis (=bloodthirsty monsters) repeatedly, making his unacceptable behavior a habit .

A forum endlessly tolerating such behavior, does not gain something from doing so, but looses something. even more so when the offender never showed the smallest tendency to change himself for the better.

It's almost as if he wants to be keelhauled...and yet when confronted with such, continually falls back on:

"Oh...I'm sorry...I thought this was a free country! Free speech!"

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Fastroping 101, funny picture.

But even from a kind of pro-Israel point of view, if they go in and bunch of guys start wielding batongs to defend against attackers, the decision to use lethal force is a big step to take. The commandos could have jumped overboard once the trouble started, I don't think one ship is worth dying/killing for. Or even worth using non-lethal force.

So they could've jumped into the sea, I'm sure they had some kind of flotation devices to keep them on the surface until they were picked up, right? Just bad judgement to use lethal force on such a scale.

So, your solution to a mission gone bad is to run away? And geez, you're supposed to "protect my lame ass"? I do hope I don't have to rely on you anytime soon.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Rules are rules, and subsim.com even does not have many. But at least those few rules there are, should be enforced. Disagreement and criticism is one thing, but hate speech like shown here is prohibited by the rules of this forum, simply that, and OTH additionally is a repeated, a frequent, a regular offender having just served another brig time and having displayed his extreme views of Germans (=Nazis) and Jews and Israelis (=bloodthirsty monsters) repeatedly, making his unacceptable behavior a habit .

A forum endlessly tolerating such behavior, does not gain something from doing so, but looses something. even more so when the offender never showed the smallest tendency to change himself for the better.

I would let the mods sort this out. If I got upset over every anti-semite I meet, I would be upset pretty often...

Ok I'll grant eskachig (sp) this, at least he said something like "someone might lose their job over this". That's something isn't it? Some poor Jew in the upper echelons of IDF will be booted out in these economic times. I mean, how cruel. All he did was basically cause the deaths of 10 + people plus several injured.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by msxyz

No, a police force would have come equipped with a different set of body armor (like that used by riot control units which is designed to minimize bash damage), gas grenades, stun batoons, etc...

Giving paintball guns or rubber bullets to soldiers is a pretty stupid thing. The moment they realize an angry mob is not stopping to the threat of being hit with some rubber balls they will switch to standard 'man stopper' bullets.

Besides, knowing the usual environment in which these commanods operate it was clear it would end this way. They are trained to fight in close quarters against guerilla units and irregulars disguised as innocent civilians or hiding behind them. They're trained to expect a booby trap right around every corner. In this cases, a split second could make the difference between life and death. That's why they're trained to shoot first and ask later.

It was the wrong military unit to send searching those ships.

Israel has a special police force trained to deal with these things, but for some legal reason, they could not be used. This was alluded to in the article I quoted previously:

The videos taken by the IDF were passed around throughout the defense establishment and made their way to other special forces, including the Israel Police’s elite counter-terror unit Yamam, which had fought to participate in the mission but had been left on the sidelines due to legal complications involving police operations out at sea.

Obviously, in hindsight, the wrong tactics were used. Rappelling down a line single file at night into a hostile crowd was not the smartest move. The whole point of a police operation is to show the person being detained that he has no other option but to submit peacefully.

I would have thought the smartest thing would be to do a classic naval boarding in daytime, with IDF warships blocking the path of the vessels and armed boarding parties coming aboard from boats.

[Factor]

The UN is now condemning the attacks. But I doubt there will be any consequence or action taken by the UN.

The UN is now condemning the attacks. But I doubt there will be any consequence or action taken by the UN.

The UN have been condemning the attack since the news broke, just as they have been condemning aspects of the "blockade" since it was introduced .
As for consequences, any UNSC action will have to rely on America not using the veto. While in the past this veto has been taken as par for the course things are changing, as the head of Mossad said to the Knesset this morning, the frequent screw ups and bullheadedness are turning Israel into a real liability for America.

On a wider note its quite amazing how so many have lined up to parrot the Israeli propoganda and attempt justifying the unjustifyable while Israels media is full of articles by Isrealis lambasting their government and military for the sheer stupidity of their actions in relation to the convoy and the blockade.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

On a wider note its quite amazing how so many have lined up to parrot the Israeli propoganda and attempt justifying the unjustifyable while Israels media is full of articles by Isrealis lambasting their government and military for the sheer stupidity of their actions in relation to the convoy and the blockade.

Dont start with the insulting insinuations or this thread will degenerate quickly. It is possible for us to make up our own mind based on the "facts" even over something as volatile as middle east politics.

Israel is not always 100% guilty and the Palestinians are not always blameless. The truth, as usual, lies somewhere in between.

The elusive goal is, as always, peace, but that elusive goal seems to be getting more and more elusive each year as the position hardens on each side.

What insulting insinuations?

The elusive goal is, as always, peace, but that elusive goal seems to be getting more and more elusive each year as the position hardens on each side.

The goal is getting more and more elusive as Isreal needs to negotiate from a position of strength, these past twenty years and more have seen the State repeatedly weaken itself through the stupidity of its own actions.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

How exactly? By having the right to defend against violence with lethal force if necessary which wasn't used btw?



Which they were entitled to do according to law whereas the invaders are clearly in breach of all laws, maritime and other.

The Israeli commandos can be described as murderers, aggressors and genocidists who can be legally killed.

The attack was against all laws, which is why Netanyahu is begging for mercy in global media right now. Not that this will stop the swift dealing of justice against Israel, the most murderous country of Middle East.



The whole world wants Israel to sieze to exist.



What you want a piece of me? If you want to avoid defensive action you should not take part in murderous operations which may very well lead to retaliations.



I don't feel bad for any Israeli people, or Jews for that matter, now or ever. You're all clearly a bunch of murderous, law breaking criminals and murderers.



Proof?



And murder people and break the law. I get it.

Just to let you know, we are getting on average 3 BPRs a day, from a wide variety of different folks, on your posts. I have not been reading these threads lately, so I cannot say I have an interest in this discussion. But you may want to temper your usual bomblast a little for the immediate future. I'm sure you've made your point and left the impression on people you were trying for. Throttle down, your engine's about to blow.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

On a wider note its quite amazing how so many have lined up to parrot the Israeli propoganda and attempt justifying the unjustifyable while Israels media is full of articles by Isrealis lambasting their government and military for the sheer stupidity of their actions in relation to the convoy and the blockade.

Well... we are liberal democracy too so there are many different opinions. None of the movies you see on utube are propaganda even the first pictures that came live on Turkish TV showed IDF soldiers clubbed with metal pipes by angry mob.The real peace activist that where on other ships did not use violence.
It is true that same newspapers expressed anger that our government and IDF fell in this premeditated trap but its kind of benign the wisest after the case.I hope the lesson was learned and the next ships will be stooped by other means-no no i dont mean by bombing them to hell.

None of the movies you see on utube are propaganda

Who said anything about movies?

It is true that same newspapers expressed anger that our government and IDF fell in this premeditated trap but its kind of benign the wisest after the case.

Its true that some newspapers have been saying this PR disaster is exactly what was going to happen ever since the journey was announced, so it isn't a case of being wise after the incident at all as they have been saying it for weeks.

[tater]

From a column at National Review—some useful bullet point facts:

Fact: Israel imposed a blockade of Gaza to prevent weapons from reaching the radical Islamic regime there that continues to make war on Israeli civilians. Egypt too has blockaded the strip, hoping to choke off weapons to Hamas, which it views as a threat.

Fact: Humanitarian relief is delivered to Gaza from Israel on a daily basis. During the first three months of this year, 94,500 tons of supplies were transferred to Gaza from Israel, including 48,000 tons of food products; 40,000 tons of wheat; 2,760 tons of rice; 1,987 tons of clothes and footwear; and 553 tons of milk powder and baby food for the strip’s 1.5 million inhabitants. Representatives of international aid groups and the United Nations move freely to and from the Gaza Strip.

Fact: Upon learning of the intentions of the Gaza flotilla, the Israeli government asked the organizers to deliver their humanitarian aid first to an Israeli port where it would be inspected (for weapons) before being forwarded to Gaza. The organizers refused. “There are two possible happy endings,” a Muslim activist on board explained, “either we will reach Gaza or we will achieve martyrdom.”

Fact: The flotilla ignored multiple instructions from Israeli navy ships to change course and follow them to the Israeli port of Ashdod.

Fact: On board one of the ships, according to al-Jazeera, the “humanitarian” Palestinians sang “Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews, the army of Muhammad will return” — a reference to the 628 massacre of Jews in Arabia at the hands of Muhammad.

Fact: The flotilla’s participants included the IHH, a “humanitarian relief fund” based in Turkey that has close ties to Hamas and to global jihadi groups in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya, and elsewhere, and which has also organized relief to anti-U.S. Islamic radicals in Fallujah, Iraq. A French intelligence report suggests that IHH has provided documents to terrorists, permitting them to pose as relief workers. Among the other cheerleaders — former British MP and Saddam Hussein pal George Galloway, all-purpose America and Israel hater Noam Chomsky, and John Ging, head of UNRWA, the U.N.’s agency for Palestinian support.

Fact: When the family of Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier who was kidnapped during a cross-border raid by Hamas in 2006, offered to support the flotilla if, in exchange, they would agree to ask Hamas to permit international agencies to visit their son, they were rebuffed.

Fact: When Israeli commandos rappelled down ropes to the deck of the Mavi Marmara, they were assaulted and beaten with metal poles and baseball bats by the Palestinians on board. (It’s available on theisraelproject.org).

[Jimbuna]

I'm not sure if this detail has been stated here yet so if it has I apologise but the UK news has reported that the Israelis boarded all 6 vessels and it was only this large one where resistance was experienced