And Speaking Of The Constitution

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

Which, judging from the multitude of variations available, seems to have been composed, contributed to, and expanded upon by almost everyone in Britain except John Cleese, who apparently had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Seems to be the UK's version of the "George Carlin" phenomenon.

TBH I prefer John Cleese

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

H

Sure it is. Richard Henry Lee proposed it on June 7, the Committee Of Five was formed on June 10, Jefferson gave the first draft to Adams and Franklin on June 30, Congress voted for Independence on July 2, but the document was published for all the world to see on...July 5!

I know, It says "In Congreff, July 4 1776", so that's the date that even Adams and Jefferson remembered as old men. Of course they also remembered signing it on the fourth, which they didn't actually do until August 2, but hey...

Congress voted to approve the Lee Resolution on 2 July, which is the day we declared our independence.

http://www.masshist.org/digitaladams...760703jasecond

The declaration of independence was signed on 4 July, but that was not the legal action that declared independence. That was just a document intended to get buy-in from a less than sympathetic population.

http://hnn.us/articles/132.html

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

What is this independance you speak so fondly of?

It is the day we exchanged one government who did not care about its citizens in favour of another government who also does not care about its citizens.

And for some reason this is celebrated as progress.

[Bubblehead1980]

Great Day in American history but also sad given our current times.I believe our founders would be very angry if they saw who is President and what he is attempting to do to the country they founded.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Congress voted to approve the Lee Resolution on 2 July, which is the day we declared our independence.

Yes indeed. Congress voted for independence on the 2nd. But they had already decided to be independent the day they sent the committee in to write the thing. So the July 2nd vote made it official, and that is very important, but...

[/quote]The declaration of independence was signed on 4 July, but that was not the legal action that declared independence. That was just a document intended to get buy-in from a less than sympathetic population.[/QUOTE]
I this case you need to read your own link a little more closely. The document wasn't signed until August 2nd. And you're right, the document itself isn't the vote that passed the resolution, but...

Independence wasnt' declared until July 5, when the first copies were circulated to the public.

And since the final copy says "In Congress, July 4", that's what we get to live with. All of your (and my) objections don't add up to a hill of beans.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Great Day in American history but also sad given our current times.I believe our founders would be very angry if they saw who is President and what he is attempting to do to the country they founded.

Which founders in particular? Adams, who signed a law that made it a crime to say anything negative about congress or the president? Jefferson, who was accused by religious leaders of the time of being an atheist, and by the political opponents of trying to sell us out to the French? Marshall, who was the first Chief Justice to be accused of "legislating from the bench", even though he ruled against himself? Of course he also set up the Supreme Court as the chief arbiter of what the Constitution means.

People like to talk about how horrible things are today. People have been talking about how horrible things are ever since 1787. You need to read more of what those people actually wrote before you complain about what someone is doing now. Just because you don't like a particular leader doesn't mean he's wrong. I don't like Obama's politics either, but the country has survived worse. Ask anybody on the other side of Lincoln. Or Jefferson. Even Washington was accused of all sorts of evil by the newspapers of his own day. If you really think things are bad, do something about it. Get yourself into office and try to make a change.

[CaptainHaplo]

Steve - does that mean I have your vote this go round?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The declaration of independence was signed on 4 July, but that was not the legal action that declared independence. That was just a document intended to get buy-in from a less than sympathetic population.[/QUOTE]
I this case you need to read your own link a little more closely. The document wasn't signed until August 2nd. And you're right, the document itself isn't the vote that passed the resolution, but...

Independence wasnt' declared until July 5, when the first copies were circulated to the public.
[/QUOTE]

Well we are getting to the point in this discussion where we need to consider which version of the Declaration of Independence we are referring to. There were a few. The first was the Dunlap Broadside that was printed on the evening of 4 July which was did not have the signature of John Hancock and Secretary Thomson, but did have the words "Signed by Order and in Behalf of the Congress" and did have both their names printed.

There were about 200 copies of this made and distributed so an argument could be made that this was the first publication of the DoI.

There was on engrossed copy which had the signatures, but that was not published and was kept secure.

Later there was the Goddard Broadside (Jan, 1777) which was the first publication of the printed names of all who had signed the DoI as of that year.

What is commonly seen as the DoI is the Stone version which was printed in 1823. That is the version that has the signatures and was the first "signed" copy that was published to the public.

If you really want to have fun, read about the political debates in the 1790's where the first political parties fought over who "really" wrote the DoIi and whether the DoI was really important. It is a hoot! It seems like we have had childish political candidates from the very start.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Platapus

It seems like we have had childish political candidates from the very start.

That may be a given for all governments throughout the ages.

[Sailor Steve]

Of course the 'official' one has the 'July 4' header, so no matter what we say that's always going to be the fallback position and 'final' argument.

Originally Posted by Platapus

If you really want to have fun, read about the political debates in the 1790's where the first political parties fought over who "really" wrote the DoIi and whether the DoI was really important. It is a hoot! It seems like we have had childish political candidates from the very start.

I'll check that one out. I always love it when someon asks "When did American politics become so nasty?" I simply point to the election of 1800.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Platapus

It is the day we exchanged one government who did not care about its citizens in favour of another government who also does not care about its citizens.

Call me sentimental but I would prefer to believe that the founders did care.

But that was 200 years ago.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Which founders in particular? Adams, who signed a law that made it a crime to say anything negative about congress or the president? Jefferson, who was accused by religious leaders of the time of being an atheist, and by the political opponents of trying to sell us out to the French? Marshall, who was the first Chief Justice to be accused of "legislating from the bench", even though he ruled against himself? Of course he also set up the Supreme Court as the chief arbiter of what the Constitution means.

People like to talk about how horrible things are today. People have been talking about how horrible things are ever since 1787. You need to read more of what those people actually wrote before you complain about what someone is doing now. Just because you don't like a particular leader doesn't mean he's wrong. I don't like Obama's politics either, but the country has survived worse. Ask anybody on the other side of Lincoln. Or Jefferson. Even Washington was accused of all sorts of evil by the newspapers of his own day. If you really think things are bad, do something about it. Get yourself into office and try to make a change.

Oh boy where to begin? Well first of all, I have read plenty about the founders so do not appreciate the "you need to read so and so before you complain" line, because I know plenty. To keep it short, I will just say the major difference between the founders you listed and Obama is that the founders loved America.Adam's was wrong but no doubts he loved his nation, a nation he helped create.The accusations against Jefferson were just his opponents playing politics.Does not matter if Jefferson was an atheist, means he was an exceptionally bright man in a time when even educated, intelligent people were way too wrapped up in religion but the label of atheist was used in politics to try and bring down an opponent.Thurgood Marshall is one of my least favorite justices.I was Pre-Law in college and had a bunch of praise about Marshall shoved down my throat but for the most part he was pretty racist and disagreed with most of his decisions.I start Law School in the Fall and sure I will have to hear about him much more, unfortunately.Lincoln did free the slaves which is a good thing but he pushed a pretty brutal military campaign on the South and absolutely abused his power, I am not a big fan of his.George Washington was attacked by some and it was just politics.Whatever my disagreement with the Presidents and Justice mentioned above, they did love this country, may have been wrong about some things but they did love the US even with some of it's faults.

The big difference as I stated is Obama does not have a real love of this country.Obama's lack of real roots and turbulent family life as a young man has left him rather bitter I believe.I believe in knowing they enemy so I have studied a bit about him.Have you read his books? The first book "Dreams of My Father" which was authored long before he was in politics is rather candid about his views on many things such as his feelings about race.From saying he felt his paternal grandfather in Kenya was a "house ******, uncle tom" etc because he worked for a white man to admitting that in order to not be seen as a sellout, he chose his friends carefully and sought out the politically active black students, the marxists, the chicanos etc so basically anything but white.Amazingly the book "Audacity of Hope" had a magic change in his views when he authored it while a Senator and planning to run for President.

Obama's associations with people like Wright, Ayers, Resko , Van Jones, etc etc going on the apology tour, passing that ridiculous health care bill against the will of the people, trying to bribe Joe Sestak out of the PA Senate race(hopefully theyll go after him for that, maybe send him the way of Richard Nixon) the stimulus, his racist reaction the Cambridge Police Incident, lackluster performance on the oil spill etc combine that with his apparent disdain for America as it is and has been, he is different that any other President and the criticism is not just political, its legitimate arguments against what he is trying to do.This is prob the most dangerous person to hold the office of President.

Finally, as far as doing something about it, well I am only in my 20's and about to begin Law School but who knows.I really have no desire in running for office but does not mean I can not speak on the issue of this terrible President that managed to sneak into office.Obama reminds me of the guy who takes advantage of a girl after she breaks up with her bf etc, he moves in for the rebound when shes weak and vulnerable but sooner or later she gets over it and is like "what the hell was I thinking?" well that is pretty much what he did to America in 2008.Things went down under Bush, he came in and although an obvious lefty ran as a centrist and sweet talked a large portion of the nation that was hurting and he got in, then has ran wild since with mostly ridiculous policies and all the wackjobs he associates with who have followed him in.Valerie Jarrett, Van Jones, Cass Sunstein, forgot her name but the deputy press sec who said her favorite political philosopher was Mao, yes Mao.Luckily and even though Im not a huge fan of his, Glenn Beck exposed them enough that they the Mao lover and Van Jones(an admitted communist who has some very disturbing racial views) resigned.

My original comment about the founders would be very upset to see who is President, I stand by it because they founded this nation and would be very upset to see what kind of trash we have running the show right now.The End.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Call me sentimental but I would prefer to believe that the founders did care.

But that was 200 years ago.

They cared, they lived under the British and wanted a free nation, they cared a lot.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Oh boy where to begin? Well first of all, I have read plenty about the founders so do not appreciate the "you need to read so and so before you complain" line, because I know plenty. To keep it short, I will just say the major difference between the founders you listed and Obama is that the founders loved America.
.
.
.

My original comment about the founders would be very upset to see who is President, I stand by it because they founded this nation and would be very upset to see what kind of trash we have running the show right now.The End.

And you seem to have missed my point, which was that your political diatribe sounds just like the political diatribes from 200 and 100 years ago. I didn't agree with Bush going into Iraq, but all that means is that I disagreed. People who really trashed Bush for that move hated him long before - Iraq was just the excuse they needed to give their hatred validation - at least in their own minds.

It's the same here. I'm no fan of Obama, but your obvious hatred seems to predate anything he's actually done.

"The founders would have hated" this or that is what every generation says about their own politicians, at least the ones they disagree with. They themselves had as many different opinions as there were people to have them. Jefferson and Hamilton hated each other with a passion. Aaron Burr managed to alienate Jefferson and his entire party, but did he really deserve to have Jefferson launch a vendetta against him?

I have my own opinions about what's good and bad for America, but I don't actually air them much because the one thing I have learned over the years is that I could be wrong. It doesn't matter which side of whatever issue they happen to be on; my beef is always with people who are convinced they are right, and therefore become incapable of having a real discussion about pretty much anything.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And you seem to have missed my point, which was that your political diatribe sounds just like the political diatribes from 200 and 100 years ago. I didn't agree with Bush going into Iraq, but all that means is that I disagreed. People who really trashed Bush for that move hated him long before - Iraq was just the excuse they needed to give their hatred validation - at least in their own minds.

It's the same here. I'm no fan of Obama, but your obvious hatred seems to predate anything he's actually done.

"The founders would have hated" this or that is what every generation says about their own politicians, at least the ones they disagree with. They themselves had as many different opinions as there were people to have them. Jefferson and Hamilton hated each other with a passion. Aaron Burr managed to alienate Jefferson and his entire party, but did he really deserve to have Jefferson launch a vendetta against him?

I have my own opinions about what's good and bad for America, but I don't actually air them much because the one thing I have learned over the years is that I could be wrong. It doesn't matter which side of whatever issue they happen to be on; my beef is always with people who are convinced they are right, and therefore become incapable of having a real discussion about pretty much anything.

Steve, I did not vote for him and knew he was full of BS from reading his books , examining his record(or what little he had) but I vowed to give him a chance and I did.I approved of him reversing the ban on Federal money for stemcell research.I agreed with the troop surge in Afghanistan.I disliked his decision for closing Guantanamo Bay but figured he would not and would believe it when when it actually happens.I refused to to speak ill of him for a long time but things just kept coming ranging from the wacko leftists like Jones, Sunstein etc he allows to hold top positions in his admin to his apology tour and bowing to the saudi king, then having the nerve to let his muppet looking propaganda minister come out and try to say oh he was just leaning down.I saw it, millions of others did, it was a freaking bow.Then you add in the stimulus, that wretched health care bill, the lies and cheating etc, bailouts of GM, nominating Sotomayor to the Supreme Court and the list goes on and on.

No hate here, this guy just does not need to be President because he is damaging this country and if he is allowed to continue, possibly damaging us beyond repair.I am in my 20's and just out of college, starting Law School in the Fall, things he is doing will affect people my age the most as the next decade or so rolls in and we are trying to get our lives really going while dealing with the the crap his policies will send our way in the form of taxes, inflation, excessive spending, federal power grabs, appointing racist people to supreme court, trying to socially engineer the military, his mistreatement of Israel etc The US is in danger of ending up like Greece if we remain under Obama.Sounds crazy but it's possible.

I am always aware that I could be wrong, any sane person should be aware of that.However, there is so much evidence against Obama, it's just painfully obvious he is wrong.A large number of Americans feel this way according to his slide in the polls and he could care less because he feels as if the citizens are idiots and he knows what is best.

P.S. What the founders wanted is pretty clear in the Constitution