U.S. military acknowledged killing 23 civilians

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

And how many civilians have died because of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, this incident included?

MIDDLE EAST

Iraq body count:
96,394 – 105,130

Afghan body count:
13,372 - 32,969

Total:
109,766 - 138,099

(sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilia...n_of_estimates

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ )


DPRK

• Rummel estimates that the Communist regime of North Korea committed 1,663,000 democides between 1948 and 1987
  • North Korean victims: 1,293,000
  • South Korean victims: 363,000
• Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism: 2,000,000
  • In Party purges: 100,000
  • In concentration camps: 1.5M
• 23 June 2003 US News & WR: 400,000 died in gulags in past 3 decades.
• The Center for the Advancement of North Korean Human Rights estimates that some 400,000 prisoners have died in labor camps since 1972. [http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/oldnkhuman/eng/nk/nknews12_01.html]
• Famine, 1995-98
  • 13 March 1999, Agence France Presse: (citing N. Korean defector) 3,500,000 deaths as of 12/98
  • 19 Oct. 2000 Guardian: 3M
  • MSF: 3.5M [http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/publications/other/deadly_2001.shtml]
  • 19 Oct. 2003 NY Times: 2M died in preventable famine.
  • 10 May 1999, AP:
    • The North Korean govt. estimates 220,000 famine-related deaths, 1995-98
    • US Congressional delegation: 2M
    • South Korean intelligence estimates that the population of North Korea fell from 25M to 22M.

(source: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm )

Any questions?

The Iraq Body Count is a US organisation. I'm not sure if I fully trust them to tell me the truth about a war the US is waging as the aggressor, sorry.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

The Iraq Body Count is a US organisation. I'm not sure if I fully trust them to tell me the truth about a war the US is waging as the aggressor, sorry.

So in other words, no matter what figures we show you, your not going to believe them?

[tater]

As a reality check Rummel cites the US for ~650,000 democides in WW2, most all due to the bombing campaign (not all deaths to bombing are counted, BTW, just those he considers "excessive." The total number killed was considerably higher, but if you are in a combat zone as a civilian...

As for the Iraq body count website, it's hardly an apologist site for the US military, it's very purpose is to paint the military in a bad light for killing too many—so that's likely a high estimate (though it seems a plausible high, unlike that idiotic lancet "study" that was published (and later discredited).

Originally Posted by Dowly

So in other words, no matter what figures we show you, your not going to believe them?

Are you saying that only US is counting the bodies of the wars? That's a bit worrying, isn't it?

Well anyway, here's some other figures. You'll see how the Iraq Body Count is the most, should I say optimistic of the bunch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Well anyway, here's some other figures. You'll see how the Iraq Body Count is the most, should I say optimistic of the bunch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Is it three and a half million though?

[Dowly]

@OTH

No, I'm not saying anything, I'm asking. Looking at your previous posts, it seems that you only have one truth you believe in and that's your own.

[Catfish]

No doubt about North Korea here

But regarding the US "war" ...
It is an old question, but the initial questions are mostly the best.

Who did initially say that the USA were "at war", after 9/11 ?
I mean, it was a terrorist assassination, not a military attack. Thought up by a Saudi-arabian. Certainly the US have invested heavily in Saudi-Arabia, as S.-A. has in the US (read: Aramco, Arbusto (b.t.w. this means "Bush", in spanish ), in Tx., but also in numerous other industries and business in the US).
Strange enough some members of the Saudi-Arabian Bin-Laden family have been killed in, or better above, Texas, in plane crashes, and 9/11 was also thought as a kind of revenge, by Osama B.-L.

"When President George Bush jr. froze assets connected to Osama bin Laden, he didn't tell the American people that the terrorist mastermind's late brother was an investor in the president's former oil business in Texas. He also hasn't leveled with the American public about his financial connections to a host of shady Saudi characters involved in drug cartels, gun smuggling, and terrorist networks." **


So say we had an assassination (NOT an "attack") by chinese terrorists, and a bad one. Will we be at war with China, then ? And if not, would we choose another nation, as a scapegoat ? Maybe somewhere south of China ...

But this is not a "war", not even an asymmetric one. No 10.000s of civilians were killed in North America, nor was the US military attacked, or the nation as such in a real danger. The chance for a US citizen to be hit by a terroristic attack by Mr. Bin Laden or his family is small. If this is a war, it still is about resources and US interests in the Middle East.


Those are b.t.w. interesting stories, about the Bushs.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...bush073099.htm
** http://www.rense.com/general14/bushsformer.htm

Greetings,
Catfish

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Is it three and a half million though?

I wouldn't be putting too much faith in Wikipedia....could have been updated by a monkey for all anybody knows

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I wouldn't be putting too much faith in Wikipedia....could have been updated by a monkey for all anybody knows

Well, it's more reliable than what Pyongyang puts out, sometimes
But even at the worse case scenario on those wikipedia figures, they don't come close to the worse case scenario DPRK figures.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Dowly

So in other words, no matter what figures we show you, your not going to believe them?

Dowly, you have to realize that in this particular type of thread there is only one truth: USA bad, everybody who opposes us good.

Period.

Facts don't matter, especially the fact that there is good and bad in every person and every country. All that counts is the bad things America did.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Oberon

DPRK

• Rummel estimates that the Communist regime of North Korea committed 1,663,000 democides between 1948 and 1987
  • North Korean victims: 1,293,000
  • South Korean victims: 363,000
• Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism: 2,000,000
  • In Party purges: 100,000
  • In concentration camps: 1.5M
• 23 June 2003 US News & WR: 400,000 died in gulags in past 3 decades.
• The Center for the Advancement of North Korean Human Rights estimates that some 400,000 prisoners have died in labor camps since 1972. [http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/oldnkhuman/eng/nk/nknews12_01.html]
• Famine, 1995-98
  • 13 March 1999, Agence France Presse: (citing N. Korean defector) 3,500,000 deaths as of 12/98
  • 19 Oct. 2000 Guardian: 3M
  • MSF: 3.5M [http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/publications/other/deadly_2001.shtml]
  • 19 Oct. 2003 NY Times: 2M died in preventable famine.
  • 10 May 1999, AP:
    • The North Korean govt. estimates 220,000 famine-related deaths, 1995-98
    • US Congressional delegation: 2M
    • South Korean intelligence estimates that the population of North Korea fell from 25M to 22M.

(source: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm )

Any questions?

+1
Those who live in glass houses...

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well, it's more reliable than what Pyongyang puts out, sometimes
But even at the worse case scenario on those wikipedia figures, they don't come close to the worse case scenario DPRK figures.

Oh I agree....and I thank my maker Wikipedia is probably still more reliable than an internet troll

Don't go asking me to don boxing gloves either....unless there is a chance of a SS Meet

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

The Iraq Body Count is a US organisation. I'm not sure if I fully trust them to tell me the truth about a war the US is waging as the aggressor, sorry.

Get yourself a notepad and a few pens, and go do a body count on behalf of finland.

Im sure the margin of error between your count and "ours" will be less than 5 to 10 thousand.

Im so glad peace loving pacifists like you exist OTH without you the world would surely lose its direction.

OTH... i dare you to go join the Peace Corps or something instead of sitting there typing about how the world should be changed - go change it.

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Oberon

It's called war, isn't it?

I believe so- this just being one more reason why we should do absolutely everything within our power to keep from starting or continuing or going to war like we did with Iraq and Afghanistan.