Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

So...how about we send in the Russian navy to deal with these murdering pirates, eh?

[L.T]

From a Danish source..

**activist disarmed a commande and doing that the gun whent of. This caused the commandos to open fire**

** far no weapons exept the commandoes have been found on board. The commandos was attacked with primitive weapons, but any ship attacked in international waters have the right to protect it self...**
¨
All Israel should have done was to wait until national waters, you can not uphold a national blocade in international waters.

Werry simple look at this.

Israel attacks Turkish ship in international waters <--- that is the important part.

This is just so stupid. Turkey is actualy an allied, Israel uses Turkish airspace for millitay training and have decent diplomatic relations with them. Turkey is a diplomatic link between Israel and alot of the middle east contrys.....

Its easy to point a gun and blame, thats why i dont talk about the situation itself, but keep my focus on this act of war against a Turkish ship in INTERNATIONAL waters.....

Next time i take my boat for a sail and get into international waters i have to equip my self against boarding from commandos that want to keep me from breaking a blocade....

I know this sound stupid, Northern europe vs middle east waters, but international waters dont have a geografikal location, its the term for waters not bound by nationalitys, and now that is not protectet by international laws, everyone is fair game.....

On the otherside. If Israel can do this with minimal damedge i get a freaking big boat and will take up boarding oceal liners and just call the same ROE as the Israelis uses. **Im sure there were breaking the blocade imposed by me in these waters that say you cant carry choclate bars on your ship**

I will hoist the Jolly L.T and impose my personal laws against anyone sailing my international waters...

We are regulatet in where we go what boarders we cross and now the only place where there was abit freedom left is "shot" to pieces....

If there no international protests against this (heawy unitet diplomatic) think of this..

Northern Korean warship boards German cargo ship in international waters

Somali pirates board cargo ship in international water

US warship boards cuban cargo ship in international waters...

If we dont react massivly against the Israelis for this, we cant react in any of the above situations, simply because you cant favour nations and how they act in international waters....If Israel is alowed to do this, so are anyone else....and this could turn International waters into a "wild west" where everyone can do anything....

Its kinda funny to think of that the Israeli navy are the worlds most modern pirate fleet....

Blow stuf up in your own waters...please....

L.T

[Skybird]

This is the Israeli view of things:

In the Haaretz, Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon says they have found weapons aboard the flotilla's ships, and claims the organisers of that flottila are linked to Palestininian terror groups like Hamas. He also said that the ships refused to obey calls for following Israeli navy units to an Israeli harbour, but continued to violate the blockade. He points out that Israel could not afford the opening of another corridor for smuggling weapons and terrorists into Gaza.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...roups-1.293187

The Jerusalem Post talks of "concealed guns", "well-planned lynchs", and activists opening the firefight, with the Israeli initially using non-lethal weapins to disperse the crowds. Some of their fireamrs additionally were stolen in following clashes, and used against soldiers.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176970

the Palestinians score in the propaganda war - this incident certainly will see the world crying wolf over Israel. However, the alternative would have been to practically lift the blockade and let even arms smuggling take place under the eyes of the Israelis.

The West would be well-advised to look closely and comment with maximum self-restraint. This is anything but just a harmless aid project, and the Palestinians are anything but just harmless victims. Their propaganda most times works even more efficient than that of the Israel. Strangely, the Western public opinion buys Palestinian propaganda uncritically and all too willingly, but makes Israeli one a major issue. If that is not double standards.

Skybird,

and you believe 100% what the Israeli media writes? You being a German I can sort of understand why you might do that.

[L.T]

Originally Posted by Skybird

This is the Israeli view of things:

In the Haaretz, Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon says they have found weapons aboard the flotilla's ships, and claims the organisers of that flottila are linked to Palestininian terror groups like Hamas. He also said that the ships refused to obey calls for following Israeli navy units to an Israeli harbour, but continued to violate the blockade. He points out that Israel could not afford the opening of another corridor for smuggling weapons and terrorists into Gaza.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...roups-1.293187

The Jerusalem Post talks of "concealed guns", "well-planned lynchs", and activists opening the firefight, with the Israeli initially using non-lethal weapins to disperse the crowds. Some of their fireamrs additionally were stolen in following clashes, and used against soldiers.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176970

the Palestinians score in the propaganda war - this incident certainly will see the world crying wolf over Israel. However, the alternative would have been to practically lift the blockade and let even arms smuggling take place under the eyes of the Israelis.

The West would be well-advised to look closely and comment with maximum self-restraint. This is anything but just a harmless aid project, and the Palestinians are anything but just harmless victims. Their propaganda most times works even more efficient than that of the Israel. Strangely, the Western public opinion buys Palestinian propaganda uncritically and all too willingly, but makes Israeli one a major issue. If that is not double standards.

Stil trying to keep things apart...

What happend on the ships i cant say NO ONE OF THE INVOLVED PARTYS CAN BE TRUSTET!! (both sides known for massive coverups) "but hope we can se all uneditet film taken by the multible cammeras installed on the ship"

But A Turkish ship was attacked in international waters by Isreali navy that is my problem.....

All they had to do was to wait those 2-3 hours and they would have had all rules and laws on there side......

[msxyz]

I don't believe for a moment the claim about weapons found aboard.

The organizers goal was too provoke Israel into an embarassingly stupid response (though, they surely obtained more than they bargained for!) but having weapons onboard would have been totally dumb.

I mean, even if nobody thought that a merry band of pacifists and activists would have triggered such a hostile response, the least any country would do is to stop the ships in their NATIONAL waters and have them searched.

And if it's true that the ships were boarded in international waters, resistance by the ship crew and occupants is justified.

[empty]

One thing makes me wonder; "elite Israeli Commandos letting activists capture their guns" I've heard many official lies before, but this one is priceless.

According to Sky News up to 19 dead. A massacre...

"Israeli commandos have stormed an international aid convoy bound for Gaza leaving up to 19 dead in what has been condemned as a "massacre"."

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by L.T

Stil trying to keep things apart...

What happend on the ships i cant say NO ONE OF THE INVOLVED PARTYS CAN BE TRUSTET!!

Indeed, that's why I said the West should answer with self-restraint and have a close look first. I quoted those two Israeli papers only to give back a bit of a balnce to a thread that already has a very strong anti-Israeli undertone and bias.

If anyone thinks Israel would risk the fallout from this incident for no reason, or thinks it is okay to just expect them to give up their blockade for no other reason than just because of an aid ship chartered by people with suspected ties to Hamaz terrorism is trying break it, then he most likely thinks foolish and wrong.

And the growing tensions between Turkey and Israel have earlier reasons than just this, it is because of Turkey's growing ultranationalism and Islamic fundamentalism and it's open cooperation with Syria and even more, Iran - going as far as even giving support for the Iranian program and ruling out that Iran ethically could even be able to ever do any harm (said Erdoghan himself). the Israelis would be stupid to trust the Turks anymore - that's why they bombed the Syrian reactor without telling the Turks before. The Turks would have warned Syria of the strike - and that is why they were so angry that the Israelis did not give them the opportunity.

What it all comes down to, is what I said in my first sentence: a blockade that is not being enforced when it gets challenged, is no blockade, but is - nothing. I claim that the PR fallout over this incident was the primary purprose behind assembling and sending out this flotilla. And many Western useful idiots aboard those ships who have plenty of pink fleecy clouds in their heads and unreflected anti-Israeli sentiments in their hearts could have known the outcome in advance - if only they would not be so mercilessly determined to not switch on their brains, and to critically reflect not only the Israeli policies, but the Palestinian agendas as well of which thy are not only totally uncritical, but are actively engaged in glossing over them and preventing them from becomeing an object of objective analysis.

[Castout]

I love the idea of the Jewish people having their own state that is Israel and I believe golden times in terms of financial and economic success is upon them or will be in a relatively short time but for God sake Israel doesn't care about its international standing and countries that don't care about their international reputation is called rogue nations.

I hope Israelis own people condemn this.

If there were weapons why not show them to the media?

Lying will only make it worse.

[Rhodes]

A portuguese news paper refers that "El Mundo" says:
"There were 759 participants in this initiative aimed at bringing the boat to Gaza 10 000 tonnes of aid. Among these were 20 deputies, a former U.S. congressman, a Nobel Prize for Peace, a Holocaust survivor and several journalists."
(google translation from portuguese)

Any other news paper confirmed this?

[Skybird]

German paper Die Welt points to an official paper by the Israeli mission to the EU, on the background of this operation. I translate that paper afterwards.

Die israelische EU-Mission hat ihre Sicht zur „Gaza-Solidaritätsflotte" in einem Hintergrundpapier erläutert. Das Papier wurde offensichtlich vor dem israelischen Militäreinsatz verfasst. WELT ONLINE dokumentiert die Erklärung:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eine Flotte aus sechs ausländischen Schiffen ist aus europäischen Häfen mit dem Ziel Gaza-Streifen aufgebrochen, mit ungefähr 600 Menschen, und 10.000 Tonnen Baumaterial und Arzneimitteln an Bord. Diese Flotte ist im Grunde ein politisch motiviertes Medienereignis, organisiert von Anti-Israel-Aktivisten und extremen Islamisten unter einem Vorwand, den die Organisatoren als humanitäre Aktion darstellen wollen. Israel hat den Organisatoren der Flotte angeboten, die Fracht über den israelischen Hafen Aschdod nach Gaza zu transportieren. Seit Januar 2009 ist mehr als eine Million Tonnen an Hilfslieferungen in den Gaza-Streifen gebracht worden. Allein im ersten Vierteljahr 2010 wurden fast 100 000 Tonnen Hilfsgüter zur Verfügung gestellt, darunter 48 000 Tonnen Lebensmittel. Seit dem Waffenstillstand im Januar des vergangenen Jahres sind 133 Millionen Liter Kraftstoff von Israel in den Gaza-Streifen gebracht worden – das ist mehr als genug um den Tank jedes Autos und jedes Lastwagens in Israel zu füllen. Israel hat Lebensmittel, Medikamente, Kleidung und Schulbücher für alle Bewohner des Gaza-Streifens geliefert, aber die Hamas verlangt Zement für ihre Bunker. Israel transportiert Woche für Woche 15.000 Tonnen echter Hilfsgüter in den Gaza-Streifen. Einer Flotte, die angeblich 10000 Tonnen Zement an Bord hat, geht es also um etwas ganz Anderes. Internationale Hilfsorganisationen schicken ihre Hilfslieferungen über etablierte israelische Routen, während Publizity-Suchende lediglich das Thema menschlicher Hilfe missbrauchen, um Aufmerksamkeit für ihre eigenen Medienaktionen zu bekommen Israel möchte erneut betonen, dass, falls das israelische Angebot zurückgewiesen wird, es alle ihm zur Verfügung stehenden Mittel einsetzen wird, um die Schiffe daran zu hindern, sowohl israelisches als auch internationales Recht zu verletzen. Zwischen Israel und der Hamas, die die Kontrolle über den Gaza- Streifen übernommen hat, besteht ein bewaffneter Konflikt. Derzeit besteht eine Seeblockade vor der Küste des Gaza-Streifens. Diese Tatsache ist unter Berücksichtigung der Anforderungen des internationalen Rechts, ordnungsgemäß bekanntgemacht worden. Demzufolge ist es allen Schiffen, einschließlich zivilen Schiffen, strikt untersagt, in das von der Blockade betroffene Gebiet zu steuern.

The paper obviously was written before the Israeli military operation began.

A flotilla of six foreign ships has left european harbours heading for Gaza, with roughly 600 people and 10,000 tons of construction material and drugs aboard. This flotilla basically is a politically motivated media event, organised by anti-Israel activists and extremist Islamists, covered by a pretence that the organisers want to demonstrate to be a hmanitarian aid effort. Israel offered the organisers of this action to transport the goods via the harbour of Aschdod to Gaza. Since January 2009, more than a million tons of supplies have been brought to Gaza. In the first quarter of 2010 alone, 100,000 tons of supplies had been brought to Gaza, amongst them 48,000 tons of food. Since the armistice in January 2009, 133 million liters of fuel were brohght from Israel to Gaza - that is more than enough to fill the tank in every car and truck within all Israel. Israel delivered food, drugs, cloathing and school books for all inhabitants of Gaza, but hamas demands cement for its bunkers. Week for week, Israel transports 15,000 tons of supplies into Gaza. A fleet that is loaded with 10,000 tons of cement, obviously has different intentions (than aid). International aid organisations use established Israeli supply routes, while publicity-junkeys just abuse the issue of humanitarian aid to gain more media attention for their own purposes. Israel proclaims that if its offer to transport these goods gets rejected, it will use all tools and options available to it to hinder these ships to break both Israeli and international law. Between Israel and the Hamas, that has taken over control over Gaza, a state of armed military conflict exists. Currently, a state of blockade from the sea exists offshore the coast of Gaza. This fact has been correctly announced under explicit recognition of all demands ruled by internatonal law. therefore, all ships are strictly prohibited to steer into the sea area affected by that blockade.

[Happy Times]

Ship full of leftists, islamists and soldiers in a "peace cruise", what a freak show!

Seems the Israelis have casualties also, they should have torpedoed these terrorists.

I quoted those two Israeli papers only to give back a bit of a balnce to a thread that already has a very strong anti-Israeli undertone and bias.

Thats funny, most of the comments are about the Israeli government being so stupid and arrogant that they didn't wait until ships were within their claimed jurisdiction before they went playing silly buggers in front of the worlds cameras.

I claim that the PR fallout over this incident was the primary purprose behind assembling and sending out this flotilla.

Wow, you really think so?
Thats amazing, whodathunk a publicity stunt would be a publicity stunt.
Though the PR crowd must be wetting themselves laughing as not in their wildest dreams could they have expected the isreali government to be quite so stupid as they were.

but the Palestinian agendas as well of which thy are not only totally uncritical, but are actively engaged in glossing over them and preventing them from becomeing an object of objective analysis.

I think your hatred for anything remotely to do with muslims prevents any objective analysis on your part.

edit to add[QUOTE]an official paper by the Israeli mission to the EU, on the background of this operation. I translate that paper afterwards.
[/QUOTE]
An official statement from one party to the incident, the party that happens to have just screwed up massively. Take note of two words they used as justification in their own statement, two words they have just chosen to entirely ignore.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Castout

I love the idea of the Jewish people having their own state that is Israel and I believe golden times in terms of financial and economic success is upon them or will be in a relatively short time but for God sake Israel doesn't care about its international standing and countries that don't care about their international reputation is called rogue nations.

I hope Israelis own people condemn this.

If there were weapons why not show them to the media?

Lying will only make it worse.

I would call Israel a sovereign nation, they actually look out for their nations and citizens interest.
Something very rare these days in the western world.