Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

VonHesse · 05-31-10, 12:16 AM

Quote:

HAIFA, Israel - Israeli Navy commandos attacked at least one of the six ships carrying pro-Palestinian activists and aid for blockaded Gaza, killing 10 and wounding several dozen on board, according to an Israeli TV network and a lawyer for the activists' group. Channel 10 said the final death toll could be higher as Navy commandos who boarded the convoy were still conducting searches and encountering often violent resistance from pro-Palestinian activists.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584...deastn_africa/

Had a feeling it was going to end this way. It's always the way it ends when people without guns try to stand up against people with guns.

Just sad really.

Oh, and the contraband worth killing over...?

Quote:

The boats are carrying items that Israel bars from reaching Gaza, like cement and other building materials. The activists said they also were carrying hundreds of electric-powered wheelchairs, prefabricated homes and water purifiers.

05-31-10, 12:26 AM

Conflicting info on the number of deceased, a sad case nevertheless. Doesn't make Israel look particularly nice.

GoldenRivet · 05-31-10, 12:51 AM

Unfortunate that people died.

But a blockade is a blockade, even if you plan on smuggling something as benign as childrens party hats into an active blockade zone you had best be aware of the very real possibility of getting your ass shot at.

Not taking sides... I'm just sayin'

these types of people would run head long into a mine field and then act surprised when they get their legs blown off.

Besides... Palestenians aren't so concerned about world stage appearances when they suicide bomb a bus station or something.

05-31-10, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Unfortunate that people died.

But a blockade is a blockade, even if you plan on smuggling something as benign as childrens party hats into an active blockade zone you had best be aware of the very real possibility of getting your ass shot at.

Not taking sides... I'm just sayin'

these types of people would run head long into a mine field and then act surprised when they get their legs blown off.

Besides... Palestenians aren't so concerned about world stage appearances when they suicide bomb a bus station or something.

You probably didn't care anything about the USS Liberty - incident either. I mean, it's Israel and you guys have 'special ties'. US military members and citizens come second, Israel comes first, right?

GoldenRivet · 05-31-10, 01:25 AM

Like I said... I'M NOT TAKING SIDES (all caps so OTH might catch it this time as he failed to do so last time around)

go into a warzone or blockade zone... Be you American, Canadian, French, German, Martian, teletubby -whatever- Be ready to get shot at if you choose to do so.

I'm not justifying these events or any past or future activities.

Just pointing out that if you go outside during a monsoon, expect to get wet.

VonHesse · 05-31-10, 01:37 AM

Early reports suggest that they were in international waters when the Israeli Navy boarded the ships.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/wo...1flotilla.html

Quote:

The warships first intercepted the aid flotilla shortly before midnight on Sunday, surprising the boats in international waters, according to activists on one vessel.

Awfuly ballsy to be boarding a Turkish flagged ship in international waters. Intended blockade runners or no, untill they actually enter Israeli waters and/or the blockade zone, forcibly boarding a foriegn flagged ship would seem to be a big no-no.

The reports are still rolling in, and it's late here. Be interested to see if things get clarified by the morning. Might be an international brouhaha
in the making.

Oh, and I'm not taking sides either. Not till the facts are clearer and then only on the facts of this incident. 2000 year arguments are not my cup of tea.

Merchant Raider · 05-31-10, 02:22 AM

Sad to see alright, a great army with a proud past reduced to this and killing women and kids in Gaza, are we seeing the begining of a new rogue state, or more unrest in this region

L.T · 05-31-10, 03:02 AM

The news here are werry carefull what they put out abóut this.

First information about this was that the activists on board attackedc the boarding soldiers with metal pipes and clubs...

Other information talks about a 6 hour gunfight with 4 of the boarders wounded...

I realy dont think on the details about who did what, What gets to me is that it happend in international waters. That detail is the key. If the information about the ship was in international waters then Israel is not one bit better than the somali pirates...

An attack like this in international waters would in the past result in millitay actions from the owner of the ship against the foe. This push the free movement at sea right into the trash can, if there is no actions against it.

I dont care what they do in national waters, but they have to respect international waters. In national waters they could blow the darn ship up with no problem......But that is and should not be alowed in international waters...

Blacklight · 05-31-10, 03:21 AM

As soon as I heard about those ships heading over there, I knew that this would happen. Although I also don't discount them all suiciding so that Israel would be blamed either. Then again, I find it totally plausible that Israel attacked the boats too.

Quote:

are we seeing the begining of a new rogue state, or more unrest in this region

I don't think that we'll EVER see peace over there. Each side hates each other going back generations and neither side is willing to budge on anything. Add to that the fact that one of the two sides won't be satisfied with just a peace treaty and you have a conflict that's going to be going on forever.

CCIP · 05-31-10, 03:35 AM

Honestly, I don't think we're ever going to get down to the truth here. All I'm seeing here - and all I saw before this even happened - is two sides set on what's basically a propaganda confrontation. There's no question the activists weren't terribly interested in practical concerns (what they're bringing in was puny and materially near-irrelevant, delivered in an extremely inefficient way) as much as they wanted to make a political statement - and honestly, I think they were probably looking for a confrontation to end as badly as possible in order to make Israel look bad. On the other hand Israel made it a point to stop them no matter what and no matter where, because it cannot afford to show that it is not in absolute strategic control. It would be far from beneath them to take to force and to disregard international law - they've done the latter so much that it's become almost THE official stance for them (i.e. their security priorities override any international law, often blatantly and without shame).

So these two particular rams ran straight at each other for a nice confrontational headbutt. The ram with the harder skull and bigger horns "won" in a total non-surprise. The global village is crying wolf for the smaller sheep.

Honestly, I'm totally unsympathetic to both sides of the incident. I will not be buying the inevitable volumes of propaganda that they will both be churning out in the coming months and weeks. They've both shown that respect for international law, security and peace were the last things they actually wanted in this, and they both deserve to be booed off their soapboxes.

Skybird · 05-31-10, 03:41 AM

A blockade that does not get enforced when being challenged, is no blockade (and an untlimatum that does not see the threatened consequences when reaching the end, is no ultimatum).

60+ wounded or dead, 10 Israeli so far wounded, one serious. Storming a ship on high seas is a high risk operation. I assume the commandos acted with according - and needed! - determination, beacause: as I just said, storming ships on high seas are high risk operations. Compromises you make easily result in own troops dead.

Many civilian goods get used for passive and active resistence in Gaza, their intended purpose gets "retargeted". When I first heared about that flotilla getting assembled, I immediately thought that this also was a PR stunt to bring Israel into a position where it would look bad, necessarily.

A week ago or so I wrote that all media awereness and all cameras should be withdrawn from the Israeli-Palestine area. There, almost every picture you see, is arranged. Every spontaneity is organised. Every spontanous demonstration - was announced one day earlier so that the foreign correspondents have enough time to organise their things and get there and set up their cameras. Every "random chance" event was designed for its purpose. You taking note of such things is the purpose why they are kept running on. As CCIP typed above while I was typing mine: it'S about propaganda. There are no innocent sides in this.

Regarding the activists, they asked for trouble, it seems they found it. Could happen when one is denying reality. An embargo is an embargo (even supported ans assisted by Egypt in this case), not a free trade zone.

msxyz · 05-31-10, 03:51 AM

There are already videos of the attack leaking on the internet.

I'm not siding withthe Israel Army but it was quite clear that this was bound to happen. And whoever organized this protest had the ships rigged with cameras so that the slightest incident could be tunred into an international media fiasco.

Not smart on the Isreali part to send battle hardened commandos. These guys are like watchdogs trained to shot first and ask question later. When you're mentally conditioned to survive by sheer brute force in a hostile envirnment you don't mix well with any stress situation that requires thinking BEFORE acting. They just act like dumb, albeit very efficient, biological robots.

They should have used policemen who are better trained to deal with protesters, riots, etc...

Just my .02c

05-31-10, 03:58 AM

Every time you think the Israeli government will learn to be less stupid they go and prove that they are very good at getting dumber.

Quote:

go into a warzone or blockade zone...

It would be less complicated if they had, but it appears they hadn't.

Castout · 05-31-10, 03:58 AM

Israel uses excessive force once again. Killing unarmed civilian/ humanitarian activists

.

Not commendable with any excuse even it might suit the word barbaric or act of barbarism.

They better find weapon cache in those ships!

I'm utterly sad and disappointed by Israeli handling of this incident

You're losing PR points Israel. To be frank it's the same like putting faeces onto your own face Israel. Congratulation if you think it was nice.

Skybird · 05-31-10, 04:15 AM

A German newspapers:
"... with dozens of members of European parliaments aboard (the flotilla), amongst them two members from the German Die Linke." (a communist party harbouring defenders of the SED and sympathizers of the GDR regime and having established contact with left terrorist groups in South America).

Gotta love them.

05-31-10, 12:51 AM	#3
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,729 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	Unfortunate that people died. But a blockade is a blockade, even if you plan on smuggling something as benign as childrens party hats into an active blockade zone you had best be aware of the very real possibility of getting your ass shot at. Not taking sides... I'm just sayin' these types of people would run head long into a mine field and then act surprised when they get their legs blown off. Besides... Palestenians aren't so concerned about world stage appearances when they suicide bomb a bus station or something. __________________

05-31-10, 01:25 AM	#5
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,729 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	Like I said... I'M NOT TAKING SIDES (all caps so OTH might catch it this time as he failed to do so last time around) go into a warzone or blockade zone... Be you American, Canadian, French, German, Martian, teletubby -whatever- Be ready to get shot at if you choose to do so. I'm not justifying these events or any past or future activities. Just pointing out that if you go outside during a monsoon, expect to get wet. __________________

05-31-10, 02:22 AM	#7
Merchant Raider Machinist's Mate Join Date: May 2008 Location: Ireland Posts: 126 Downloads: 451 Uploads: 0	Sad to see alright, a great army with a proud past reduced to this and killing women and kids in Gaza, are we seeing the begining of a new rogue state, or more unrest in this region __________________ I THINK THEREFORE I AM , I THINK ?

05-31-10, 03:35 AM	#10
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Honestly, I don't think we're ever going to get down to the truth here. All I'm seeing here - and all I saw before this even happened - is two sides set on what's basically a propaganda confrontation. There's no question the activists weren't terribly interested in practical concerns (what they're bringing in was puny and materially near-irrelevant, delivered in an extremely inefficient way) as much as they wanted to make a political statement - and honestly, I think they were probably looking for a confrontation to end as badly as possible in order to make Israel look bad. On the other hand Israel made it a point to stop them no matter what and no matter where, because it cannot afford to show that it is not in absolute strategic control. It would be far from beneath them to take to force and to disregard international law - they've done the latter so much that it's become almost THE official stance for them (i.e. their security priorities override any international law, often blatantly and without shame). So these two particular rams ran straight at each other for a nice confrontational headbutt. The ram with the harder skull and bigger horns "won" in a total non-surprise. The global village is crying wolf for the smaller sheep. Honestly, I'm totally unsympathetic to both sides of the incident. I will not be buying the inevitable volumes of propaganda that they will both be churning out in the coming months and weeks. They've both shown that respect for international law, security and peace were the last things they actually wanted in this, and they both deserve to be booed off their soapboxes. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

05-31-10, 03:41 AM	#11
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,783 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	A blcokade that gets not enforced when being challenged, is no blockade. A blockade that does not get enforced when being challenged, is no blockade (and an untlimatum that does not see the threatened consequences when reaching the end, is no ultimatum). 60+ wounded or dead, 10 Israeli so far wounded, one serious. Storming a ship on high seas is a high risk operation. I assume the commandos acted with according - and needed! - determination, beacause: as I just said, storming ships on high seas are high risk operations. Compromises you make easily result in own troops dead. Many civilian goods get used for passive and active resistence in Gaza, their intended purpose gets "retargeted". When I first heared about that flotilla getting assembled, I immediately thought that this also was a PR stunt to bring Israel into a position where it would look bad, necessarily. A week ago or so I wrote that all media awereness and all cameras should be withdrawn from the Israeli-Palestine area. There, almost every picture you see, is arranged. Every spontaneity is organised. Every spontanous demonstration - was announced one day earlier so that the foreign correspondents have enough time to organise their things and get there and set up their cameras. Every "random chance" event was designed for its purpose. You taking note of such things is the purpose why they are kept running on. As CCIP typed above while I was typing mine: it'S about propaganda. There are no innocent sides in this. Regarding the activists, they asked for trouble, it seems they found it. Could happen when one is denying reality. An embargo is an embargo (even supported ans assisted by Egypt in this case), not a free trade zone. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-31-10, 12:26 AM	#2
OneToughHerring Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Conflicting info on the number of deceased, a sad case nevertheless. Doesn't make Israel look particularly nice.

05-31-10, 03:02 AM	#8
L.T Torpedoman Join Date: May 2010 Location: Denmark Posts: 112 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	The news here are werry carefull what they put out abóut this. First information about this was that the activists on board attackedc the boarding soldiers with metal pipes and clubs... Other information talks about a 6 hour gunfight with 4 of the boarders wounded... I realy dont think on the details about who did what, What gets to me is that it happend in international waters. That detail is the key. If the information about the ship was in international waters then Israel is not one bit better than the somali pirates... An attack like this in international waters would in the past result in millitay actions from the owner of the ship against the foe. This push the free movement at sea right into the trash can, if there is no actions against it. I dont care what they do in national waters, but they have to respect international waters. In national waters they could blow the darn ship up with no problem......But that is and should not be alowed in international waters...

05-31-10, 03:51 AM	#12
msxyz Engineer Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 218 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	There are already videos of the attack leaking on the internet. I'm not siding withthe Israel Army but it was quite clear that this was bound to happen. And whoever organized this protest had the ships rigged with cameras so that the slightest incident could be tunred into an international media fiasco. Not smart on the Isreali part to send battle hardened commandos. These guys are like watchdogs trained to shot first and ask question later. When you're mentally conditioned to survive by sheer brute force in a hostile envirnment you don't mix well with any stress situation that requires thinking BEFORE acting. They just act like dumb, albeit very efficient, biological robots. They should have used policemen who are better trained to deal with protesters, riots, etc... Just my .02c __________________ ...Sinking deeper into the cold, dark oceans of life

05-31-10, 03:58 AM	#14
Castout Silent Hunter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jakarta Posts: 4,794 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 6	Israel uses excessive force once again. Killing unarmed civilian/ humanitarian activists . Not commendable with any excuse even it might suit the word barbaric or act of barbarism. They better find weapon cache in those ships! I'm utterly sad and disappointed by Israeli handling of this incident You're losing PR points Israel. To be frank it's the same like putting faeces onto your own face Israel. Congratulation if you think it was nice. __________________ My blog: http://exposingsingapore.wordpress.com/ Last edited by Castout; 05-31-10 at 04:09 AM.

05-31-10, 04:15 AM	#15
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,783 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	A German newspapers: "... with dozens of members of European parliaments aboard (the flotilla), amongst them two members from the German Die Linke." (a communist party harbouring defenders of the SED and sympathizers of the GDR regime and having established contact with left terrorist groups in South America). Gotta love them. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.