I seriously don't get it.........

[Damo1977]

Originally Posted by gorilliamos

First of all.... Damo's avatar is rediculous..... I think a definite custom job by those higher up as a possible reaction towards drunken postings.. It's hilarious. Sorry damo but it is.

No need to be sorry, it is my fault for gettin drunk, and picking up the likes of it :rotfl:
But actually I haven't posted maggoted for, oh 16 days or there abouts....Thats why people understood me with this. ,

anyhow am tired
Take care all

*as I sent this I am free of it, and now am Captain.....*

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by sergbuto

So Chekhoslovakia or even Austria are not counted. Or they were not democratic, independent, Europian countries and German invasion can be regarded as colonization?

You are right off course but the 2ww didnt start with these occupations.In my opinion it should have started.One of the biggest questions in Finland is why Sweden didnt come to aid Finland in 1939? :P

[Type941]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

You are right off course but the 2ww didnt start with these occupations.In my opinion it should have started.

OK... so did WW2 START by those occupations, or for you it only counts when Britain and France stopped being wussies and decided to finally honour one of many of their pre war gurantees? Again and again, you only debate what fits your bill, and again you neglect the bigger picture.

[Happy Times]

Well WORLD WAR means what it says and it didnt start then.I said,it should have started.Do you think that i accept the occupation of those countries?What is your point?My country doesnt have the right to its history?Sorry if it makes someone look bad.The western democracies were weak in the beginning and have some responsibility.But it would be strange to blame them for the actions of Germany and Russia that caused the whole war!

[Type941]

You see to continuously make claims that you can pinpoint who started the war - in one paragraph! I think you are very naive in that sense, as you keep only pointing out what concerns you only (MY COUNTRY).

The war didn't start by Hitler in sept 39 some say, but in 37 when JApan invaded or when Anschluss happened. You seem to give Allies a Pass on germany in the 30s but I think it was exactly the reason why Hitler BLUFFED them into believeing he had an army to crush them all.

Make no mistake about it - had the Germans started a war 3 years later as advised and only on 1 front - there could have been a VERY different story.

Also, the war in Finland was what convinced Hitler to attack USSR and Hitler's believe after that war that USSR was very weak militarily was his downfall, as he was never going to win a war on 2 fronts. Had he pressed on battle of Britain, and who knows what the result would have been. IT's all very interdependent. If you can only view it from your very strong unti USSR view than the debate becomes nothing more than an argument on who's right and who's wrong. Many many historians say that the events like Munich conference was the reason why Hitler thought it was OK to attack as he felt he'd get away.

He got away in Slovakia.
He got away in Austria.
Only in Poland he didn't get away. From that sequence of events, it looks like the war began a bit sooner than Sept 3rd.

[sergbuto]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

My country doesnt have the right to its history?Sorry if it makes someone look bad.

It can't make look bad what/who is already very bad. There is no excuse to what happened to your country and it is not acceptable in any way. But in my opinion this sad period in history of your country may have affected your judgement concerning the topic of this thread. I guess you would not agree on that and certainly have the right to do so.

If Germany and USSR started the war then why western democracies went to war only against Germany. I guess they were choosing between evil and less evil in terms of how it seemed at that time.

Did Stalin have plans to exterminate the whole Finnish population or make them slaves or he was more afraid of the revolt against him inside the USSR? Who knows? But Hitler certainly had plans to wipe out a few nations from the world map and was at the same time democraticly elected leader.

Naturally, none of this should be considered as a slightest excuse to what happened.

As to Sweden not supporting Finland at that time, naturally, they did not want to get involved in the war even for the right thing. It all comes to double-moral standards which can be seen in politics nowdays as well.

[Happy Times]

Type941.You have clearly misunderstood me.My point was that generally historians pinpoint it there.To my country as you put it it started when those Russian bombs dropped without warning in 39.To the Americans it started with Japanese bombs in 41,get the drift?No point debating about this, do you agree?About my strong anti USSR(not against the people)attitude,to me it is the same as Nazi-Germany.The fact that somebody lived an ok life there isnt an excuse,so did many people in Germany.And i dont think that individual Russians should start feeling bad about the past.Its the present administration in Russia that should try to have better relations with its neigbours.

[Kapitan]

in this world no one can get on with every one there will always be one with problems and others trying to offload thier problems on others or passing the blame.

no one should feel bad about the past of thier country its been and gone what matter is now and tommorow not then "then" happend yesterday last year 100 years ago its been and gone we cant change it so all we can do is move on.

[Happy Times]

Yeah,well looking at the Northern Ireland and Middle East how do you see this going away by just good will? Im not the only one in Finland that has claims to those lands.This is an issue that will live in the collective memory of a nation.Doesnt go away by wishing,threatening or trying to brush it aside.

[CCIP]

As someone who lived on those lands for many years before... well...

Oh give it up.
As much as I sympathise with Finland as a country and as much as I love the people... seriously, I don't believe in this whole scenario. It's a very confusing story; there's not much in the way of ethnic or at least cultural Finns (an overstatement, even!) living on the isthmus at all (I haven't met any in all my years there, in fact). A return to Finland would entail irrecoverable losses to hundreds of thousands of people who own property, property which I don't think either of the states involved would be willing to compensate for. And these are people who, most importantly, never had any ill intentions towards the Finns and had no say in the events which led to the situation.

And, morally speaking, as someone born in Leningrad - again, and this isn't to say anything about my attitude to the Finns - but I think Finland got away with a more-than-fair deal considering the scale of the crime they were conscious, if very reluctant partners in.

The bottom line is that, in real-world, un-idealized terms, Finland's story is (ironically, perhaps) the happiest one of all the Baltic countries, and I've always been very happy for that.

[Damo1977]

Originally Posted by Kapitain

dammo before i throw you out of a window id like you to know one thing it wasnt on purpose (go figure)

Ahhhhhhh, you evil juvenile deliquent, was that your idea for my Avatar, well revenge will be sweet remember, revenge is best served cold

Anyhow a question to settle my curiosity, was Sweden accidently bombed during WW2 or lose soldiers (not volunteers) by accidental border firefights etc?

Hi ho, hi ho its off to work I go,
take care all

[Kapitan]

if it was bombed it probly be by the germans the russians were more intrested down south and the british bombers couldnt go that far seeing as they had to get passed norway first

[Happy Times]

Oh give it up.
As much as I sympathise with Finland as a country and as much as I love the people... seriously, I don't believe in this whole scenario. It's a very confusing story; there's not much in the way of ethnic or at least cultural Finns (an overstatement, even!) living on the isthmus at all (I haven't met any in all my years there, in fact).

Reason you havent seen Finns in the Karelian isthmus is that they chose the uncertain future as refugees in their own country instead of execution or slavery in Syberia.

A return to Finland would entail irrecoverable losses to hundreds of thousands of people who own property, property which I don't think either of the states involved would be willing to compensate for. And these are people who, most importantly, never had any ill intentions towards the Finns and had no say in the events which led to the situation.

Yes hundreds of thousands of people suffered and lost their property even they had no ill intentions towards the Russians and had no say in the events.BTW Finland payed huge compensations for the damage in their own land caused by someone else..

And, morally speaking, as someone born in Leningrad - again, and this isn't to say anything about my attitude to the Finns - but I think Finland got away with a more-than-fair deal considering the scale of the crime they were conscious, if very reluctant partners in.

What crime?Finland was only after what was stolen before.If your referring to the siege of Leningrad then dont you know that despite repeated requests by Hitler Finland refused to help take the city or even cut the supply route.Finland could have done both easily.This has been admitted by the Russians.So wasnt that a more-than- fair deal considering the scale of the crime that Russia was guilty?The true blame is on Stalin that didnt evacute the city.

The bottom line is that, in real-world, un-idealized terms, Finland's story is (ironically, perhaps) the happiest one of all the Baltic countries, and I've always been very happy for that

Well first Finland isnt a Baltic country.Second,in that list it doesnt take much to be the "happiest"..The others were occupied,robbed,the people were killed and enslaved and partly replaced with new immigrants.So in real-world in un-idealized terms the story wasnt happy or even pretty

[Damo1977]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Well first Finland isnt a Baltic country.

Phew I was right!! It is Scandanavia, along with Sweden, Norway, Denmark, I thought things had changed so I didn't say anything. I am not sure about Iceland or Greenland, maybe there are too?

Anyhow, Happy Times, I understand what you are saying, and I think a few others do too. But the majority of people have lost land, belongings and loved ones during WW2 and over the centuries, by invasions and reinvasions. Both of my sides of family lost land, property and people due to WW2. My mums side lost there farm to a thing called 'Collective Farming' by those nasty invading Russian Hordes , and a few of the children got 'hurt' by a handful of completely sick and evil Russian Soldiers. I would love for my family to get their farm back or compensation or revenge against those soldiers. But it ain't going to happen. It is a waste of time thinking or worrying about it.

Like Kapitan said "Lets move on". Otherwise history is bound to repeat itself. Hopefully it won't, otherwise Europe, USA and the majority of the world won't be worrying about China and the economic and regional giant it is becoming. There will be a few other things on our mind!

[Type941]

See, the way you think Happy Times is that it seems a new war only with Russia this time with Nato's support would do for you. Is this what you want? Or you expect now Russia to hand back Korelia peacefuly, volonteraly. Why don't you go to your parliament and demand your country do something about it, rather than sit here and type an angry rant every time. That might be more useful at least you could have said you did something. May be you'll learn along the way the reasons why it's not done. Your mentality is what I don't like - you are hung up in the past and with people like you there will never be full piece because no matter what someone does, you will be bitter and angry about something else.

A separate question: Can you tell me why Finland was fighting USSR with Hitler though near Leningrad or was it just revenge and Finland wanted to get its territories back only, and Hitler being there sieging leningrad was just a coincidence?