a story of patriotism...

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Should have raised a swastika that might draw some attention, it really does eff me off, a friend of mine has just said to me "i think hitler got it wrong gassing the jews he should have done it to the muslims" <<< not from me but there is a facebook group called lets draw mohammed day.

"Draw Mohammed Day" is an interesting concept that I actually find worthwhile. I am no Islamophobe, and as an atheist I do not view Islam in any different light than Christianity. I actually have a certain fondness for both of them.

Some use Draw Mohammed Day as a way of mocking Islam, but this is petty and a waste of an excellent opportunity to make an actual statement of value, and that is a statement of tolerance. I very much agree with youtuber AronRa on this, as the protest is against violence, not the faith:



It's from 06:33 that the video is relevant to this particular topic, though the whole video is good.

I don't mind mosques being built, and I don't mind churches being built. If, in 100 years, the dominant religion in Europe is Islam, I really couldn't care less. But what I do care about is this: the newcomer must adapt to the establishment, not the other way around. If Islam wants to be accepted in Europe, Islam must conform to European culture. Christianity has a headstart in this, having grown up in Europe. The changes have been gradual enough that the Church has been able to cope.

For Islam it is going to be more difficult, but necessary all the same. Islam is no different than Christianity: Christianity has been (and someplaces still is) like Islam most places today. So has Judaism. If Christianity and Judaism, and pretty much all other religions of the world could outgrow that, there is no reason to assume that Islam can't do the same.

Originally Posted by DarkFish

...which is exactly my point.

But with a little bit of foresight he should have anticipated that once the police issued the order, they weren't going to back down from it. They would have to enforce it or lose face. Perhaps the grown-up thing would be for them to admit, "yeah, you're right, we were overreacting there", but especially when dealing with protesters, who is going to expect them to admit to mistakes? It might be construed as weakness, and their authority might be seen as impotent. This is why refusing to do what the police tells you to do can be very dangerous, even if they're in the wrong. I'm not saying you should just take it, but if you're going to oppose it, think it through.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

But with a little bit of foresight he should have anticipated that once the police issued the order, they weren't going to back down from it. They would have to enforce it or lose face. Perhaps the grown-up thing would be for them to admit, "yeah, you're right, we were overreacting there", but especially when dealing with protesters, who is going to expect them to admit to mistakes? It might be construed as weakness, and their authority might be seen as impotent. This is why refusing to do what the police tells you to do can be very dangerous, even if they're in the wrong. I'm not saying you should just take it, but if you're going to oppose it, think it through.

It wasn't the police at first. They only came into the picture later on

Anyway, I understand how the police didn't want to back down once they started, but fact is they knew what was going on before they even appeared.
I can see why they arrested my dad, my point is that he shouldn't have been ordered to lower the flag.
The direct reason for being arrested was indeed not following up the council official's instructions, but eventually the cause was clearly waving the flag.
If he hadn't waved the flag, he wouldn't have been arrested.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

But what I do care about is this: the newcomer must adapt to the establishment, not the other way around. If Islam wants to be accepted in Europe, Islam must conform to European culture.

I don't mind about Islam itself. I do mind about the fact that most muslims here do not want to confirm to European culture. If you move to another country, you must adapt to it.
If they come here, they can believe what they want. But they must adapt to our establishment, and not demand of us natives to adapt to theirs.

Which is why the plans for the mosque were met with a considerable amount of resistance from the neighbourhood. We don't want minarets, we don't want calls of prayers. And we certainly don't want all parking spots in the neighbourhood to be taken by mosque goers while there's not enough room now already.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

I don't mind about Islam itself. I do mind about the fact that most muslims here do not want to confirm to European culture. If you move to another country, you must adapt to it.
If they come here, they can believe what they want. But they must adapt to our establishment, and not demand of us natives to adapt to theirs.

Which is why the plans for the mosque were met with a considerable amount of resistance from the neighbourhood. We don't want minarets, we don't want calls of prayers. And we certainly don't want all parking spots in the neighbourhood to be taken by mosque goers while there's not enough room now already.

I don't see how minarets or calls to prayer go against culture, though. In this context, by "culture" I mean moral values, social norms. I am not talking about architecture, music or visual arts. Sure, a mosque or minaret is going to stand out in a non-Muslim environment at first, but only because it's different. Minarets aren't meant for you, and you're not forced to go. And so they do not interfere with your life unless you let it. Sure, we are more used to church bells than Islamic calls to prayer, but this is purely a cosmetic difference, and only a question of familiarity.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

I don't see how minarets or calls to prayer go against culture, though. In this context, by "culture" I mean moral values, social norms. I am not talking about architecture, music or visual arts. Sure, a mosque or minaret is going to stand out in a non-Muslim environment at first, but only because it's different. Minarets aren't meant for you, and you're not forced to go. And so they do not interfere with your life unless you let it. Sure, we are more used to church bells than Islamic calls to prayer, but this is purely a cosmetic difference, and only a question of familiarity.

I see culture as more than just moral values and norms. I see culture as the whole collection of things that differentiates one people from another. For example, that differentiates us Dutchmen from you Norwegians. While our values and norms are probably pretty similar, our cultures still differ. It's because we've got other architecture, other food, another history, other music, you name it. All these things, both material and immaterial in nature, define a culture.

It very well is a question of familiarity, but that is simply because culture in itself is a question of familiarity.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

I see culture as more than just moral values and norms. I see culture as the whole collection of things that differentiates one people from another. For example, that differentiates us Dutchmen from you Norwegians. While our values and norms are probably pretty similar, our cultures still differ. It's because we've got other architecture, other food, another history, other music, you name it. All these things, both material and immaterial in nature, define a culture.

It very well is a question of familiarity, but that is simply because culture in itself is a question of familiarity.

Well, in that sort of context I do, too, which is one of the things I enjoy about going abroad, to experience different cultures in the sense you are talking about. And naturally I have a sense of what is "Norwegian" culture in this respect, too. But this is pure romanticism, and of no actual consequence beyond that. And this aspect of culture, too, must inevitably change. Neither of our countries have the same cultural flavours they did 100 or even 50 years ago, and it would be an unhealthy sign if they did. And the previous generations would no more like to live in our society than we would like to live in any future society.

Cultural "flavour" is something that gradually changes with each generation, and changes quite a bit with immigration. This is neither dangerous nor even lamentable. I'm quite the nostalgic myself, and am sad to see things of my childhood change. My late grandparents' house has been demolished and a new house is in its place, and another house where the barn was. My father recently sold half of the real estate their house is on, and with it a great, big willow tree as well as several berry bushes (red currant, black currant, raspberries, gooseberries...). All gone, now, and a new house in their place. My childhood neighbourhood looks radically different from when I grew up, but although it makes me sad I can't say that it's bad. It's simply change.

Same thing with mosques, minarets and the like. There is no way you can say that it's bad change, it's simply change you personally don't like.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

Well, in that sort of context I do, too, which is one of the things I enjoy about going abroad, to experience different cultures in the sense you are talking about. And naturally I have a sense of what is "Norwegian" culture in this respect, too. But this is pure romanticism, and of no actual consequence beyond that. And this aspect of culture, too, must inevitably change. Neither of our countries have the same cultural flavours they did 100 or even 50 years ago, and it would be an unhealthy sign if they did. And the previous generations would no more like to live in our society than we would like to live in any future society.

Culture does change through time. These changes have always been relatively slow, up until the industrial revolution. But even in that time period, I dare say our culture did evolve on its own and was often not directly influenced by other cultures (foreign technology, surely, but not cultures). Our "modern" culture (19th century onwards) still differs very much from other cultures, even though there has been extensive contact with many foreign cultures throughout the years.

And I truly believe that, should immigration be limited to a minimum, our culture will continue to differ from other western European cultures.

Cultural "flavour" is something that gradually changes with each generation, and changes quite a bit with immigration. This is neither dangerous nor even lamentable. I'm quite the nostalgic myself, and am sad to see things of my childhood change. My late grandparents' house has been demolished and a new house is in its place, and another house where the barn was. My father recently sold half of the real estate their house is on, and with it a great, big willow tree as well as several berry bushes (red currant, black currant, raspberries, gooseberries...). All gone, now, and a new house in their place. My childhood neighbourhood looks radically different from when I grew up, but although it makes me sad I can't say that it's bad. It's simply change.

Same thing with mosques, minarets and the like. There is no way you can say that it's bad change, it's simply change you personally don't like.

But a house been broken down or a tree cut isn't a change in culture. It's very understandable that it makes you sad, but for me it's a quite different change. The destruction of your childhood memories does not change your identity as a Norwegian.
If you do or don't mind these changes is indeed a personal matter I guess.

Personally I really love cultural differences, if I'm in another country I always try to soak up as much of the local culture as I can. I always want to try the local dishes, no matter how many creepy disgusting organ meat it contains. I admire the local architecture. I observe the local way of life. I listen to the language.
Wouldn't it be a terrible shame if this all is gone? If no matter what country you go to, you see minarets, you eat halal food, you hear Arabic speech?

I don't think it will go that far, eventually someone will interfere, but as of now, that's what we're heading.
It isn't a question of Islam per se, I know muslims that are perfectly integrated into Dutch society, and of which you wouldn't even know they were immigrants, if not for their looks. But in private, they are very well muslims.
Similarly, I also know non-muslims that completely did not integrate into our society and behave like they would do in their home country. They often do not even speak Dutch.
I prefer the first category by far.

BTW, interesting discussion IMO

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

But a house been broken down or a tree cut isn't a change in culture. It's very understandable that it makes you sad, but for me it's a quite different change. The destruction of your childhood memories does not change your identity as a Norwegian.

Nor does the building of churches, nor does the building of mosques. If there's another mosque built, how will that affect my identity as a Norwegian? How will it affect your identity as Dutch?

Personally I really love cultural differences, if I'm in another country I always try to soak up as much of the local culture as I can. I always want to try the local dishes, no matter how many creepy disgusting organ meat it contains. I admire the local architecture. I observe the local way of life. I listen to the language.
Wouldn't it be a terrible shame if this all is gone? If no matter what country you go to, you see minarets, you eat halal food, you hear Arabic speech?

Not really. Everywhere you go you get McDonald's and Burger King, and various taco and kebab shops. The halal and kebab stands are no more detrimental to any culture than McDonalds, Burger King or KFC. Or 7-11, for pete's sake. They're everywhere, but there's much more to culture than that.

As for mosques, it's more or less the same thing: there are churches all over Europe (all over the world, in fact), but the churches are all different. Though I'm an atheist, I love visiting churches when I'm abroad, as long as they have some antiquity to them. The architecture of the great cathedrals is really breathtaking, and I love history. The Moors also left many traces of their presence in Spain, and isn't that just a good thing? I think it is good for people to leave their mark behind. And so long as there is religious freedom in the Netherlands, there can be nothing anti-Dutch about churches, mosques, Buddhist temples or whatever. The only difference is that you are used to churches and the sound of church bells - you are not used to minarets and sounds of Muslim prayer. It's a new flavour to you, and maybe you don't like the flavour, but as long as the new flavour conforms to local morals and laws, why let it rub you the wrong way?

BTW, interesting discussion IMO

Seconded