Questions for getting back to SH5 - Page 2

kylania · 05-20-10, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itkovian

I read that post, and there is something in that procedure I find strange: Why would the range not matter? You say it "cancels out" why? Obviously if you're shooting at the 3rd rank you need to "lead" your target more than if you're shooting the 1st rank. How come that does not matter using your method?

Range cancels out since you're built in the lead by the gyroangle. See this image here to visualize when to shoot and how the torpedoes will move. Red lines are the ships moving, green is the "lead angle" you've turned your scope to face as indicated by a 000 gyroangle reading, orange are your torpedoes and the blue line is the torpedo path.

You just set your scope and leave it there and fire as ships pass your wire. Farthest target first.

Quote:

Well, my batteries are low because for quite a long time there were constantly airplanes in the air (I was sailing by an aerodrome, for one thing), so I sailed on while submerged.

Yeah, you should slow down to slow though. You won't make as much time and distance, but you'll be more effective. Stay under for an hour or two, then surface again. If planes are really bad, just stay under till dark and recharge your batteries over night on the surface. This won't work so well in later war with radar, but for now it'll be good.

Quote:

As for sailing towards the back of the convoy, I'm not sure how wise that would be right now, as that would take me deeper in the Firth, likely crawling with escorts, and then I'd have to limp out for a while before I could surface.

I just mean "exit" the convoy. When I get to work I'll post a pic with what i mean.

Itkovian · 05-20-10, 09:46 AM

Aaaah, I see. Drawing does help.

However, how did you know that 10 degrees is the angle needed? From what I understand you simply turn it until you reach 0 gyroangle, but how come 0 gyroangle gives you the exact lead needed?

I assume that's "calibrated" by the TDC or some such? Does that lead change based on target speed and torpedo speed?

So, for example, if the target was moving faster, it would require less degrees to move peri to 0 gyroangle (and, conversely, more degrees if the torpedo speed is lower)?

A pre-requesite is to have your boat's bow pointing perpendicular to the convoy's path, correct? That's why gyroangle 0 is the angle you need to point for?

From what I can tell, this would make this method the best way to attack a convoy moving in ordered formation like this, whereas more traditional techniques (relying on range and not having to point the boat in the right direction) are more useful for less "structured" scenarios?

Thank you.

Itkovian

kylania · 05-20-10, 10:10 AM

The lead angle was set by the gyroangle, which used the target speed to determine the amount of angle. The faster the target the more the lead. For something like 5-8kts around a 10 degree angle would be good, if your target is traveling 10-12kts something more like 15-20 degrees would be better.

Torpedo speed is tricky. All the torpedo speed upgrades you get from skills and abilities are not included in the TDC calculations by the game, so I strongly suggest not training them, or use a mod that neutralizes them.

This type of attack above is something called the "Dick O'Kane" method, adapted from the US Fleet Boats he captained. The 000 gyroangle just means that the torpedoes are travelling straight ahead and will hit at a 90 degree angle, all preset.

The TDC is powerful enough so that you don't always have to do this kind attack. As long as you've entered in all the information correctly, you can hit from lots of different attack vectors. Just the other night I was on a parallel course with my target, behind him to his right by about 2000m. I put in all the info into the TDC and fired a torpedo.

It raced a head, then curved towards the target's course. Direct hit! I'd aimed at the funnel, and it hit just a bit behind there, but still took out the propellers. Finished him off with the deck gun.

You're correct, this is a pretty good way of attacking a convoy you've gotten in front of. But other angle attacks can be just as effective, if not as easy to setup.

Itkovian · 05-20-10, 10:32 AM

I see, I understand now that the Gyro-angle is the angle for the torpedo, makes sense.

But then, let me see i I understand correctly: in order to actually get a solution (with visual contact of course), the only data the TDC actually needs to calculate the lead-angle needed is the target speed, AOB, and the torpedo speed (I already have that mod, yes), and of course your own heading and speed (which I assume is already known by the TDC)?

So in reality, the target range is not useful for actually hitting, except for plotting the contact and obtaining target speed?

This is when I wish I remembered my geometry.

Itkovian

Itkovian · 05-21-10, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylania

The TDC is powerful enough so that you don't always have to do this kind attack. As long as you've entered in all the information correctly, you can hit from lots of different attack vectors. Just the other night I was on a parallel course with my target, behind him to his right by about 2000m. I put in all the info into the TDC and fired a torpedo.

It raced a head, then curved towards the target's course. Direct hit! I'd aimed at the funnel, and it hit just a bit behind there, but still took out the propellers. Finished him off with the deck gun.

I tried using your method last night, and got wildly differing results. I'm talking even if I was just to hit a single ship (not even the whole "hitting the whole line at once"). I've read your instructions, and must be missing an important point.

I think the problem is part of the sequence, where you need to "lock in" the values. Is there a step where you need to point the peri in a specific direction before entering in the data and then locking it in (hitting the green button, turning it red).

Maybe it would help better if you were to explain the procedure you used to perform waht you did in what I quoted above?

Unless... do you mean you got that kill using the TDC normally (locking the target, entering the data, firing)? Because I must admit that of all my attempts last night, the only time I got consistently accurate hits was when I used the TDC normally (locking, getting range, etc.)

Anyway, thank you for the help.

Itkovian

kylania · 05-21-10, 08:47 AM

For the fast 90 attack, once I know their speed and course I get into position.

Then basically you don't even need to lock any ships, just point your scope to 000 and set the 90 degree AoB, enter their speed, set range to whatever your farthest target will be just so you can see the yellow line then "lock" the TDC (click the green button so that it's red and you can't adjust the values anymore). Then turn the scope till it's reading 000 on the gyroangle and wait for ships to cross your wire.

It's probably the pointing to 000 before setting that AoB that was causing problems.

The other night I was in a heavy fog, probably only about 150-200m visibility. I caught sight of a ship's shape ahead of me. I estimated it's range at 300, estimated the speed at 10kts just by how far the initial contact was and where we were now and a rough estimate of AoB. Fired blind into the storm and a minute later heard "torpedo impact!" and faintly saw the fire through the fog! Of course the next two times I tried this I missed horribly! heh Never fight in fog, just shadow and wait till you can actually see your targets. heh

05-21-10, 02:43 PM

Personally i dont bother with this method and just prefer to just attack 1 or 2 ships at a time. Better stick 4 fish into 2 ships than 4 fish into 4 ships in my opinion. Dont waste time with kill shots later on and keep contact with the convoy. I've trailed a convoy for 5 days off the coast of africa before just putting torp after torp into it, and watching the tracers off the horizon during the day as the italian airplanes (vectored in by me) take out the escorts or damage them enough to make them slow down and drop away from the convoy. and approaching for a surface attack at night.

Full real dead is dead 530,000 tons in july 1941

same game i made the day i bought the game on launch day

Itkovian · 05-21-10, 02:45 PM

Aaah, I see. So this technique only works on those 90 degree attacks then. I had misread one of your prior comments.

Itkovian

raymond6751 · 05-21-10, 03:05 PM

I'm guessing that you folks got the 'gold' European version of the game?
I just checked my N.American manual and found NOTHING about using TDC at all.

I guess they thought we were too primitive to use it?

rulez_Cz · 05-21-10, 03:30 PM

*I've decided to go back to SH5 (at least until July, when the Battle of Britain begins anew *grin*).*

How is Battle of Britain going to begin ? Anything I should know ?

robbo180265 · 05-21-10, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rulez_Cz

*I've decided to go back to SH5 (at least until July, when the Battle of Britain begins anew *grin*).*

How is Battle of Britain going to begin ? Anything I should know ?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=121746

No definite date yet AFAIK. Can't wait for this to be released either

Itkovian · 05-21-10, 07:04 PM

There are several attempts to "relive" the Battle of Britain this year, in honour of its 70th anniversary.

So, in fact, the battle begins July 10th.

Itkovian

kylania · 05-21-10, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymond6751

I'm guessing that you folks got the 'gold' European version of the game?
I just checked my N.American manual and found NOTHING about using TDC at all.

I guess they thought we were too primitive to use it?

"Gold" SH5 was the American version of Europe's Collector's edition, minus actual physical product, soundtrack or added value of any kind.

Everything I know about TDC has been learned during SH3 and SH4 from tutorials from Paul Wasserman, WernerSobe, Dantenoc, Rockin' Robbins and others. The SH5 manual didn't even mention TDC I think.

jwilliams · 05-21-10, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymond6751

I'm guessing that you folks got the 'gold' European version of the game?
I just checked my N.American manual and found NOTHING about using TDC at all.

I guess they thought we were too primitive to use it?

The manual..... all versions had the same manual..... just with the collectors Edition the manuel was a printed manual. It's the same manual. Its still Worthless!!!!

Itkovian · 05-24-10, 07:08 AM

Aye, I admit the manual is pretty much worthless. That said, now that 1.2 is out, and I've got a few mods in, I absolutely love SH5.

Excellent game, and I love the "sim-as-captain" style. We need more of that in simulators, I say. Imagine a flight sim, for example, where you get to step off your aeroplane and walk off to the Officer's Mess, or to dispersal. I'd pay good money for that. :p

Itkovian

05-20-10, 10:10 AM	#18
kylania Silent Hunter Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 3,528 Downloads: 118 Uploads: 0	The lead angle was set by the gyroangle, which used the target speed to determine the amount of angle. The faster the target the more the lead. For something like 5-8kts around a 10 degree angle would be good, if your target is traveling 10-12kts something more like 15-20 degrees would be better. Torpedo speed is tricky. All the torpedo speed upgrades you get from skills and abilities are not included in the TDC calculations by the game, so I strongly suggest not training them, or use a mod that neutralizes them. This type of attack above is something called the "Dick O'Kane" method, adapted from the US Fleet Boats he captained. The 000 gyroangle just means that the torpedoes are travelling straight ahead and will hit at a 90 degree angle, all preset. The TDC is powerful enough so that you don't always have to do this kind attack. As long as you've entered in all the information correctly, you can hit from lots of different attack vectors. Just the other night I was on a parallel course with my target, behind him to his right by about 2000m. I put in all the info into the TDC and fired a torpedo. It raced a head, then curved towards the target's course. Direct hit! I'd aimed at the funnel, and it hit just a bit behind there, but still took out the propellers. Finished him off with the deck gun. You're correct, this is a pretty good way of attacking a convoy you've gotten in front of. But other angle attacks can be just as effective, if not as easy to setup. __________________

05-21-10, 08:47 AM	#21
kylania Silent Hunter Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 3,528 Downloads: 118 Uploads: 0	For the fast 90 attack, once I know their speed and course I get into position. Then basically you don't even need to lock any ships, just point your scope to 000 and set the 90 degree AoB, enter their speed, set range to whatever your farthest target will be just so you can see the yellow line then "lock" the TDC (click the green button so that it's red and you can't adjust the values anymore). Then turn the scope till it's reading 000 on the gyroangle and wait for ships to cross your wire. It's probably the pointing to 000 before setting that AoB that was causing problems. The other night I was in a heavy fog, probably only about 150-200m visibility. I caught sight of a ship's shape ahead of me. I estimated it's range at 300, estimated the speed at 10kts just by how far the initial contact was and where we were now and a rough estimate of AoB. Fired blind into the storm and a minute later heard "torpedo impact!" and faintly saw the fire through the fog! Of course the next two times I tried this I missed horribly! heh Never fight in fog, just shadow and wait till you can actually see your targets. heh __________________

05-21-10, 03:05 PM	#24
raymond6751 Admirable Mike Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,338 Downloads: 421 Uploads: 0	TDC I'm guessing that you folks got the 'gold' European version of the game? I just checked my N.American manual and found NOTHING about using TDC at all. I guess they thought we were too primitive to use it? __________________ Game Designer: Close The Atlantic - World War Three https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/...orld-war-three

05-20-10, 09:46 AM	#17
Itkovian Helmsman Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 106 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Aaaah, I see. Drawing does help. However, how did you know that 10 degrees is the angle needed? From what I understand you simply turn it until you reach 0 gyroangle, but how come 0 gyroangle gives you the exact lead needed? I assume that's "calibrated" by the TDC or some such? Does that lead change based on target speed and torpedo speed? So, for example, if the target was moving faster, it would require less degrees to move peri to 0 gyroangle (and, conversely, more degrees if the torpedo speed is lower)? A pre-requesite is to have your boat's bow pointing perpendicular to the convoy's path, correct? That's why gyroangle 0 is the angle you need to point for? From what I can tell, this would make this method the best way to attack a convoy moving in ordered formation like this, whereas more traditional techniques (relying on range and not having to point the boat in the right direction) are more useful for less "structured" scenarios? Thank you. Itkovian

05-20-10, 10:32 AM	#19
Itkovian Helmsman Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 106 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	I see, I understand now that the Gyro-angle is the angle for the torpedo, makes sense. But then, let me see i I understand correctly: in order to actually get a solution (with visual contact of course), the only data the TDC actually needs to calculate the lead-angle needed is the target speed, AOB, and the torpedo speed (I already have that mod, yes), and of course your own heading and speed (which I assume is already known by the TDC)? So in reality, the target range is not useful for actually hitting, except for plotting the contact and obtaining target speed? This is when I wish I remembered my geometry. Itkovian

05-21-10, 02:43 PM	#22
MattDizzle Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Personally i dont bother with this method and just prefer to just attack 1 or 2 ships at a time. Better stick 4 fish into 2 ships than 4 fish into 4 ships in my opinion. Dont waste time with kill shots later on and keep contact with the convoy. I've trailed a convoy for 5 days off the coast of africa before just putting torp after torp into it, and watching the tracers off the horizon during the day as the italian airplanes (vectored in by me) take out the escorts or damage them enough to make them slow down and drop away from the convoy. and approaching for a surface attack at night. Full real dead is dead 530,000 tons in july 1941 same game i made the day i bought the game on launch day

05-21-10, 02:45 PM	#23
Itkovian Helmsman Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 106 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Aaah, I see. So this technique only works on those 90 degree attacks then. I had misread one of your prior comments. Itkovian

05-21-10, 03:30 PM	#25
rulez_Cz Watch Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 25 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I've decided to go back to SH5 (at least until July, when the Battle of Britain begins anew grin). How is Battle of Britain going to begin ? Anything I should know ?

05-21-10, 07:04 PM	#27
Itkovian Helmsman Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 106 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	There are several attempts to "relive" the Battle of Britain this year, in honour of its 70th anniversary. So, in fact, the battle begins July 10th. Itkovian

05-24-10, 07:08 AM	#30
Itkovian Helmsman Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 106 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Aye, I admit the manual is pretty much worthless. That said, now that 1.2 is out, and I've got a few mods in, I absolutely love SH5. Excellent game, and I love the "sim-as-captain" style. We need more of that in simulators, I say. Imagine a flight sim, for example, where you get to step off your aeroplane and walk off to the Officer's Mess, or to dispersal. I'd pay good money for that. :p Itkovian