Why I've decided not to buy, or own, SH5 (and I hope Ubi reads this)

doomlordis · 05-05-10, 03:25 AM

Officially the most boring pointless thread i have ever read.

Adriatico · 05-05-10, 03:39 AM

schlechter pfennig...

I agree with your post (even more after fact that crowd is playing "offline" AC2 and Settlers... and that only "bad name" saved SH5 from the same fate...)

BUT

be aware that: most of people that think or feel the same way as you - are not participating (posting) any more here... what is OK and normal... but it means that: you will hit the wall of "SH5 approach" fanboys every time you open your mouth...

Just a friendly advice... and congratulations for a nice post!

robbo180265 · 05-05-10, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriatico

schlechter pfennig...

I agree with your post (even more after fact that crowd is playing "offline" AC2 and Settlers... and that only "bad name" saved SH5 from the same fate...)

BUT

be aware that: most of people that think or feel the same way as you - are not participating (posting) any more here... what is OK and normal... but it means that: you will hit the wall of "SH5 approach" fanboys every time you open your mouth...

Just a friendly advice... and congratulations for a nice post!

I think that you and the others are rather missing the point.

I for one have enjoyed most of this discussion and I have no problem with schlechter pfennig's posts at all. In fact if you read back through the thread I don't think anyone has attacked schlechter pfennig for his views.

On the whole - this was a good discussion with some good ideas put forward.
Trouble is that once again a troll (who has no interest in either the game or this forum) was alowed to come into the debate and start a flame war - and yes I'm happy for the posts to hang their for all to see, anyone who reads the whole thread will easily see the trolling for what it was.

I am sick and tired of threads in this forum being hijacked by the same trolls who have their own agenda , which has nothing to do with either this forum or the game.

And it seems that others feel the same way too.

krashkart · 05-05-10, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbo180265

Trouble is that once again a troll (who has no interest in either the game or this forum) was alowed to come into the debate and start a flame war - and yes I'm happy for the posts to hang their for all to see, anyone who reads the whole thread will easily see the trolling for what it was.

I am sick and tired of threads in this forum being hijacked by the same trolls who have their own agenda , which has nothing to do with either this forum or the game.

And it seems that others feel the same way too.

Well, let it go for now and we'll see how the thread progresses from here. It's far from hijacked as long as we keep in line with the original post.

robbo180265 · 05-05-10, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krashkart

Well, let it go for now and we'll see how the thread progresses from here. It's far from hijacked as long as we keep in line with the original post.

Agreed

thyro · 05-05-10, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbo180265

Trouble is that once again a troll (who has no interest in either the game or this forum) was alowed to come into the debate and start a flame war - and yes I'm happy for the posts to hang their for all to see, anyone who reads the whole thread will easily see the trolling for what it was.

I am sick and tired of threads in this forum being hijacked by the same trolls who have their own agenda , which has nothing to do with either this forum or the game.

And it seems that others feel the same way too.

Indeed I do feel you are trolling again. Not happy with a thread/post simply don't read and skip it altogether. Otherwise you could getbetter live doing something useful for change.

No har feelings but was necessary to be said.

Beside SH5 has good potential but still is long away to be finished and not everyone can play it simply because of the only online requirement. Therefore other posters are welcome to post if even venting frustration like you somethimes do. So defining someone you dislike as troll, remeber you/others that think like you aren't much better trolls either. Cheers

aergistal · 05-05-10, 08:54 AM

There should be a balance between security and accessibility. When security gets in the way of proper use then there's a problem. The idea of permanent connectivity while playing sounds pretty wrong. They could at least revalidated after a few days because temporary connection problems do arise.

The DRM will only get in the way of legal users since the pirates have probably released a crack by now. There is always a workaround and there is no such thing as perfect security yet (not even the hardware keys, like the USB dongles mentioned in the first post).

While the DRM could be annoying, the reasons I would not buy SH5 for now is the lack of proper testing and the bug reports I've seen around. So I will wait for the gold release.

ddrgn · 05-05-10, 09:12 AM

IN the case of SH5, DRM has worked. Without going into further detail DRM was successful. I have also had the game since Feb 28/2010 and have only experienced a one hour period where connecting was a problem. As a paying customer I have not been annoyed/mad/depressed over the DRM with my copy of SH5. Others that don't even own the game are more depressed and angry than me LOL....

Mind you I have new device called a cable modem, and I moved my computer inside, it was in the barn before. Oh and haven't been able to show off my elite convoy skills to chicks on flights to Paris yet... Will let you know how the DRM works out there too...

aergistal · 05-05-10, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddrgn

IN the case of SH5, DRM has worked. Without going into further detail DRM was successful[...]

Please do get into further details, because the guys docked at some [edit: not-to-be-ever-named site] say it wasn't.

IanC · 05-05-10, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddrgn

IN the case of SH5, DRM has worked. Without going into further detail DRM was successful.

Garion · 05-05-10, 09:46 AM

The main reason I have not bought SH5 is the DRM, I live in rural Scotland and my internets consists of a man standing on the roof of my house waving flags

.

I cannot therfore comment on the gameplay, bugs or other failings in the game.

I can however come to an informed 'to buy or not to buy' descion based on what people have posted here and on other forums (the ones that have set out rationaly their gripes or praises). Their experiences both good and bad, have helped me to come to the descion to hold off on purchasing.

I don't have to stick my hand in a fire to know that I will get burnt.

As for EULA's, these are 'After Sales' contracts and in the UK and I daresay most of Europe they are 'null and void'. For them to be legally binding they would have to be presented in a form that could be read prior to sale. I have returned games to the store several times and have always recieved my money back (I am an old fart and the manager of my local Game store used to shudder when I entered the shop

)

We also have the right to sell on our copy of a game when we are done with it. It is my opinion that the DRM has been implimented to kill the second hand market and that is intself a breach of UK Consumer Law.

Now I know consumer protection laws differ in their effectivenes across the globe, so maybe the EULA's are binding in some members countries.

As for Subsims being a niche market, that is true, but there must come a time when to say Enough is Enough. I would rather the genre died for a while than buy into ever decreasing functions and content. But thats just my opinion.

Teh Internets is a great platform for rants and raves, it brings out the down right rude in some and text is very limited way to express a point, there being no body language to go along with it. Lets face you only know who a formum member actualy is if you meet then in real life.

right I'll get my coat

Garion
AKA Jevhaddah

robbo180265 · 05-05-10, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thyro

Indeed I do feel you are trolling again. Not happy with a thread/post simply don't read and skip it altogether. Otherwise you could getbetter live doing something useful for change.

No har feelings but was necessary to be said.

Beside SH5 has good potential but still is long away to be finished and not everyone can play it simply because of the only online requirement. Therefore other posters are welcome to post if even venting frustration like you somethimes do. So defining someone you dislike as troll, remeber you/others that think like you aren't much better trolls either. Cheers

I'm assuming that you've not actually read this thread. Had you done you would have seen my input into it was not trolling at all. In fact I was part of the discussion.

Perhaps you should read the whole thread now and see what you think

schlechter pfennig · 05-05-10, 01:18 PM

I'm not sure how this has wandered back into the DRM arena again. It's never been my intention to state that I'd decided neither to purchase nor own SH5 because of DRM. That's not to say I'm happy with how Ubisoft has chosen to implement that, because I'm not. But if that was my only 'beef' about SH5, I'd be playing it as we speak and, in fact, would never have posted at all.

The general 'pro' consensus I seem to be seeing is (and please excuse my paraphrasing here) that, yes, SH5 does have a few warts and hiccups, but that once the next patch is released and once our modders have a chance to sink their teeth into things, SH5 will excel.

You know what? I agree. I only have to compare stock SHIII to what is available now to see that happening.

But here's the thing. Look at it from the other side of the window. Ubisoft has released a majorly flawed product with the (apparant) expectation that our community will provide the necessary overall to their product to bring it up to its potential. Eh?

Now since the only PC game I truly play is SHIII (my flight sims --Red Baron II, WWII Fighters and Janes F-18 are more now-and-again playtime for me) I honestly cannot answer the following question: how many other PC simulations are released half-finished, and dependant upon modders to complete them?

And our modders will be crippled here just as they were with SHIII, for we are unable to modify anything dealing with the source code.

The choice I had was to purchase, or take a 'wait-and-see' position, or to not purchase, a half-finished product, one that took a major departure from what I had been expecting (which, granted, may not mean a lot; after all, SHIII was a major departure from prior games) and wasn't at all complete.

I don't feel that supporting, or subsidizing, shoddy work is helpful, especially when it supports the attitude of "Ah, who cares, the community will finish it for us.".

And yes, I agree that submarine simulations are a niche market. But by my last count there's slightly more than 49,000 registered members here alone. I have no idea how many casual guests drop in who are also interested in this 'niche'. I realize that not all of us are strictly subsimmers, but that still seems to be a pretty substantial client base to me.

Owning a boat is a 'niche market' too; just ask anyone that's had to buy marine-grade hardware. A five-cent screw from Home Depot is prolly a $5 one for a boat! And as I had stated before, I would have been willing to pay at least US$200 for a properly-working and finished SH5. I'm not sure how many else here would be willing to cough up that much dough, but I suspect that no few of us 'nichers' would have done so, if we were positive that the product was up to snuff and worth every penny.

Feuer Frei! · 05-05-10, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomlordis

Officially the most boring pointless thread i have ever read.

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

Diopos · 05-05-10, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

Yeahp! But you don't know that until said opinions are expressed!

So, as long as forum rules (and, I might add, basic "manners") are respected everyone is entitled to expressing his opinion.

05-05-10, 03:25 AM	#1
doomlordis Wild Night in Bangkok Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 179 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Officially the most boring pointless thread i have ever read. __________________ subs and birds!

05-05-10, 03:39 AM	#2
Adriatico Grey Wolf Join Date: May 2007 Location: Periscope depth Posts: 860 Downloads: 119 Uploads: 0	schlechter pfennig... I agree with your post (even more after fact that crowd is playing "offline" AC2 and Settlers... and that only "bad name" saved SH5 from the same fate...) BUT be aware that: most of people that think or feel the same way as you - are not participating (posting) any more here... what is OK and normal... but it means that: you will hit the wall of "SH5 approach" fanboys every time you open your mouth... Just a friendly advice... and congratulations for a nice post! __________________

05-05-10, 09:12 AM	#8
ddrgn Korvettenkapitän Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 918 Downloads: 362 Uploads: 30	IN the case of SH5, DRM has worked. Without going into further detail DRM was successful. I have also had the game since Feb 28/2010 and have only experienced a one hour period where connecting was a problem. As a paying customer I have not been annoyed/mad/depressed over the DRM with my copy of SH5. Others that don't even own the game are more depressed and angry than me LOL.... Mind you I have new device called a cable modem, and I moved my computer inside, it was in the barn before. Oh and haven't been able to show off my elite convoy skills to chicks on flights to Paris yet... Will let you know how the DRM works out there too... __________________ ddrgn mods: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=217261

05-05-10, 09:46 AM	#11
Garion Commander Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 452 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	The main reason I have not bought SH5 is the DRM, I live in rural Scotland and my internets consists of a man standing on the roof of my house waving flags. I cannot therfore comment on the gameplay, bugs or other failings in the game. I can however come to an informed 'to buy or not to buy' descion based on what people have posted here and on other forums (the ones that have set out rationaly their gripes or praises). Their experiences both good and bad, have helped me to come to the descion to hold off on purchasing. I don't have to stick my hand in a fire to know that I will get burnt. As for EULA's, these are 'After Sales' contracts and in the UK and I daresay most of Europe they are 'null and void'. For them to be legally binding they would have to be presented in a form that could be read prior to sale. I have returned games to the store several times and have always recieved my money back (I am an old fart and the manager of my local Game store used to shudder when I entered the shop) We also have the right to sell on our copy of a game when we are done with it. It is my opinion that the DRM has been implimented to kill the second hand market and that is intself a breach of UK Consumer Law. Now I know consumer protection laws differ in their effectivenes across the globe, so maybe the EULA's are binding in some members countries. As for Subsims being a niche market, that is true, but there must come a time when to say Enough is Enough. I would rather the genre died for a while than buy into ever decreasing functions and content. But thats just my opinion. Teh Internets is a great platform for rants and raves, it brings out the down right rude in some and text is very limited way to express a point, there being no body language to go along with it. Lets face you only know who a formum member actualy is if you meet then in real life. right I'll get my coat Garion AKA Jevhaddah

05-05-10, 08:54 AM	#7
aergistal Chief Join Date: May 2010 Location: France Posts: 326 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 1	There should be a balance between security and accessibility. When security gets in the way of proper use then there's a problem. The idea of permanent connectivity while playing sounds pretty wrong. They could at least revalidated after a few days because temporary connection problems do arise. The DRM will only get in the way of legal users since the pirates have probably released a crack by now. There is always a workaround and there is no such thing as perfect security yet (not even the hardware keys, like the USB dongles mentioned in the first post). While the DRM could be annoying, the reasons I would not buy SH5 for now is the lack of proper testing and the bug reports I've seen around. So I will wait for the gold release.

05-05-10, 01:18 PM	#13
schlechter pfennig Commander Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 462 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 7	I'm not sure how this has wandered back into the DRM arena again. It's never been my intention to state that I'd decided neither to purchase nor own SH5 because of DRM. That's not to say I'm happy with how Ubisoft has chosen to implement that, because I'm not. But if that was my only 'beef' about SH5, I'd be playing it as we speak and, in fact, would never have posted at all. The general 'pro' consensus I seem to be seeing is (and please excuse my paraphrasing here) that, yes, SH5 does have a few warts and hiccups, but that once the next patch is released and once our modders have a chance to sink their teeth into things, SH5 will excel. You know what? I agree. I only have to compare stock SHIII to what is available now to see that happening. But here's the thing. Look at it from the other side of the window. Ubisoft has released a majorly flawed product with the (apparant) expectation that our community will provide the necessary overall to their product to bring it up to its potential. Eh? Now since the only PC game I truly play is SHIII (my flight sims --Red Baron II, WWII Fighters and Janes F-18 are more now-and-again playtime for me) I honestly cannot answer the following question: how many other PC simulations are released half-finished, and dependant upon modders to complete them? And our modders will be crippled here just as they were with SHIII, for we are unable to modify anything dealing with the source code. The choice I had was to purchase, or take a 'wait-and-see' position, or to not purchase, a half-finished product, one that took a major departure from what I had been expecting (which, granted, may not mean a lot; after all, SHIII was a major departure from prior games) and wasn't at all complete. I don't feel that supporting, or subsidizing, shoddy work is helpful, especially when it supports the attitude of "Ah, who cares, the community will finish it for us.". And yes, I agree that submarine simulations are a niche market. But by my last count there's slightly more than 49,000 registered members here alone. I have no idea how many casual guests drop in who are also interested in this 'niche'. I realize that not all of us are strictly subsimmers, but that still seems to be a pretty substantial client base to me. Owning a boat is a 'niche market' too; just ask anyone that's had to buy marine-grade hardware. A five-cent screw from Home Depot is prolly a $5 one for a boat! And as I had stated before, I would have been willing to pay at least US$200 for a properly-working and finished SH5. I'm not sure how many else here would be willing to cough up that much dough, but I suspect that no few of us 'nichers' would have done so, if we were positive that the product was up to snuff and worth every penny.