Why I've decided not to buy, or own, SH5 (and I hope Ubi reads this)

[codmander]

Originally Posted by schlechter pfennig

I've already posted on the SHIII forum my views of Silent Hunter III. Should anyone be interested in them you'll find that here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168658

But now I'd like to expound my feelings about SH5.

First off, I need to make clear two things: one is that I don't own SH5, nor have I played it at all. And, two (and Ubi, I really hope you pay attention to what follows, although, based upon experience . . . ::sighs: I'm not ever going to own it or play it.

Last year, when I first found out about the as-then upcoming release of SH5 I was ecstatic . . . and bummed.

Ecstatic because, based upon the trailers I'd seen it looked fantastic! And because I felt sure that, after three years of following everything that had evolved on this forum, and paying attention to the mods that had been developed, and paying attention to our wistful 'wish-lists', that SH5 would be everything we'd ever dreamed SHIII could be, and much more.

And bummed because I knew my current rig was waaaaaay too old to handle running SH5. Although I didn't know what SH5 would require vis-à-vis hardware it didn't take a rocket scientist to understand that what I had wasn't going to even meet the minimum requirements. Heck, it wasn't enough to have run SH4!

As the weeks went by I kept replaying the trailers and keeping up with the tidbit releases with a sense of wistful anticipation. One day I called my XO (i.e. wifey )over and showed her the trailer. She asked me if I was going to buy it when it came out and I told her I'd love to, but that I wouldn't be able to run it even it I did.

I didn't make a big deal of it but, a few weeks later, she said that if I needed a newer PC in order to run it, then if I wanted maybe we should look at buying one with our tax return.

OK Ubi, point number one: one of your (potential) customers was willing to shell out big bucks for the single, sole reason of being able to run your PC game.

I had no idea what the cost of the game would be but, if it was anything at all like I was hoping it would be --SHIII with all the bugs removed, with all the graphics and increased realism the supermods bring to it, with all the 'broken things' (like torpedo planes, torpedo boats and destroyers not being able to fire torpedoes), etc.-- I would have been willing to pay US$200 - US$250 for it.

OK Ubi, point number two: at least one of your (potential) customers would have paid mucho top dollar for your product.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending upon one's viewpoint) we hadn't as yet filed our taxes when SH5 was released. So, to salve and ease my 'addiction' I'd started checking up on reviews . . . and found myself both bitterly disappointed and utterly disgusted.

OK Ubi, please please please, I implore you, pay close attention to the following editorial. And, as well, remember something very important: we don't need you, but you need us.

Let's start with the DRM. Obviously you haven't learned anything since the Starfarce debacle. Yes, I agree that software creators have concerns regarding theft and piracy. But, in my opinion, you seem to have been more concerned with software piracy protection then you did about game content and development.

I work in a company that has CADCAM software. Each seat is roughly US$50 grand. Trust me, if anyone's gonna worry about a product being pirated they should be. And do you know how they control that? With a simple USB dongle, coded to each seat.

That's right Ubi. You could have still enabled customers to play SH5 without needing the DVD in the tray, and with the ability to install it on multiple PCs, too. But you'd need to have that dongle in the PC in order to play the game.

Instead, you've chained us to the requirement of having a permanent Internet connection. So what happens if my cable goes down? I can't watch TV, so I might want to relax and play my favorite game . . . not. What if I'm traveling and I'm somewhere that doesn't have Internet access? Not everyone does, you know. And more to the point, if something goes down at your end, everyone's screwed.

I could have lived with that, I suppose. Lived with it not, of course, the same as being happy about it. But that's not the main reason I'll never buy, own or play SH5.

I was anticipating SHIII on steroids. You'd had three years to follow postings on Subsim. Three years to listen to our gripes and suggestions. Three years to analyze mods and supermods. Three years to learn what your customers wanted.

And from what I'm seeing and hearing, you just went your merry ol' way and did what you wanted to do.

We wanted a simulation; you gave us an arcade game. We wanted a dynamic campaign; you end things in the middle of the war. We wanted the ability to control all aspects of our boat if we wished to do so; you don't even give us a compass, the ability to check our depth under keel, or even historic nav maps!

I'm not going to list all the problems we, and I, have with your product. Far too many people have already done so. I do, however, want to address one topic I keep seeing: that of patiently waiting for SH5 to be modded.

SHIII, from what I've seen, read about, and understand, was a huge departure from the norm. So I'm understanding (not happy, mind you, but understanding) about the holes and bugs the released/patched final version contained. And, yes, the modded versions make a good product much, much better.

But you've had years to learn all that, too. I shouldn't have to wait for Subsim's modding community to fine-tune and fix your product. Enhance and polish, oh yes. But require them to repair and refit such a pooch-screwed release for you? No way!

So, in closing, I hope that someone at Ubi pays heed to all we've posted about Silent Hunter on here. Because I'm very much afraid if they don't, we've seen the last of submarine simulations from them.

ditto

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

If that is the case then he's quoting BR out of context to get his point across.

Here's the whole quote



See what I mean?

I usually don't get involved trying to point out who is right or wrong. But, we have one guy saying most of us are too busy playing to really give a rat's behind about SH5's troubles, which is true. Another guy is showing the vast graphical superiority of the new SH5 as opposed to the older, time-tested and proven SH3. It's true, the graphics in SH5 are much, much better. Might even be true that some of the anti-SH5 crowd are devout SH3 fans, but this I do not know for certain.

If that made any sense then my hangover must be wearing off.

Originally Posted by Brunos

I'm not against the ppl that has a full right to toss this game (at current state) into the garbage bin, but I feel that this thread is one of many to face a lockdown sooner or later. Simply because Subsim.com is way too friendly to UBI no matter what crap they're making, Subsim sour cream will stay solidary quiet and better not talk about bad things themselves, moreover every thread that comes with titles of any form against UBI, SH5 or DRM are actively monitored by moderators, for simple reason to look for "overedged" comments and then as an excuse to use it for locking it up..

While I can agree with some of that to some extent, I also have to agree with the work that is being done by the moderators to preserve the peace at Subsim. For a better idea of the "peace" I'm talking about, hang out in General Topics for awhile and see how it comes together. Then have a look at the locked threads, here at Subsim and also at numerous other fan/game sites - with particular attention paid to newer releases. From my perspective, and having been on two sides of the debate now for ten-plus years, the lockdowns are just part of the routine. So is all the bitching, the long-winded speeches, so on and so forth. With that said, I keep a good sense of humor about it because it goes with the territory. All new games come with bugs, and there are always, and will always be, reasons not to buy or whatever the case may be.

And, if any of that made sense...

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Brunos

I'm not against the ppl that has a full right to toss this game (at current state) into the garbage bin, but I feel that this thread is one of many to face a lockdown sooner or later. Simply because Subsim.com is way too friendly to UBI no matter what crap they're making, Subsim sour cream will stay solidary quiet and better not talk about bad things themselves, moreover every thread that comes with titles of any form against UBI, SH5 or DRM are actively monitored by moderators, for simple reason to look for "overedged" comments and then as an excuse to use it for locking it up..

I don't care if you like DRM. I don't care if you think it the sign of the Apocalypse. All I care about is that you don't talk about circumventing copy protection here.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by krashkart

I think he's trying to point out that the SH3 crowd wants SH3 with better graphics.

easy..play SH5..

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

easy..play SH5..

Tell ya what, send me money to build a system that will run it and I'll consider it.

I won't knock your game. If you likes it then that's all that matters. SH3 is my current crush.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by krashkart

SH3 is my current crush.

sh3 and sh4 are great games, enjoy.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Brunos

This is for Subsim itself, or for Neal to care less about Subsims spiritual wealth by spreading propaganda that: "SH5 crap is actually a chocolatte cake, you just don;t know it yet (or will be someday)".

Care to point us to the propaganda?

What I've seen since browsing the SH5 forums is the usual assortment of questions, AAR's and so forth, and the usual "hate mail" type of stuff that comes with any new release. But maybe I missed the force-feeding of "SH5 is good"?

[John Channing]

You are spouting absolute nonsense. What Subsim is (or should be) is very adequatley summed up here (from the Subsim FAQ)...

The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general.

Now, if you are incapable of posting in a mature fashion then that is going to be a problem. Other than that knock yourself out.

JCC

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Brunos

The pressure to stay positive or be quiet is in the air despite it's not written. The quantity of locked up threads gives it away. Obviously they were created by some pissed to death ppl about SH5 that is not acceptable by posh Subsim policy. Whatever..

It is what it is. Truth be told, I bet once some patches are released the air will clear up a bit. In the meantime, we'll probably see more back-and-forth and lockdowns. It's difficult for me to see the heavy-handedness I've read about, mainly because I don't post much up here, and also because it's exactly the same as any other forum (for new games) I've frequented in the past. As for "freedom of speech", well, John Channing made a good point earlier. Also recognize that it stops where the hardcore moderation must begin. It's up to us as members to decide how to reign ourselves in without moderator intervention.

Hang out in General Topics for awhile, have a laugh or two.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Brunos

All I'm saying is: All that comes naturally should not be restricted. Emotions makes us humans not a machines. As they say it should be a mature forum ? What makes all of us mature ? Age or the way you treat yourself and others ? If somebody doesn't like natural emotions since they're too old to express them themselves is only their own problems. Or should we gather here on the day of first pension and act in cold-grey stable boring way ? If somebody so desperately wants to be that mature please add the age confirmation tab prior registration for everyone new to know this place as for old codgers..

This place isn't just for old cogders, although guys like Steve and Jim are both welcome here. Rather it is a place for civility in discussion. That is what sets SubSim.com apart from other types of gaming forums, including the ones that you, evidently, are accustomed to.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by krashkart

Also recognize that it stops where the hardcore moderation must begin. It's up to us as members to decide how to reign ourselves in without moderator intervention.

Excellent. That is exactly the point, and why this forum has had the success it has. Frankly, I wish you'd post more.

[Méo]

Originally Posted by John Channing

You are spouting absolute nonsense. What Subsim is (or should be) is very adequatley summed up here (from the Subsim FAQ)...

Now, if you are incapable of posting in a mature fashion then that is going to be a problem. Other than that knock yourself out.

JCC

Thanks.

Seems like few members here forgot that.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

This place isn't just for old cogders, although guys like Steve and Jim are both welcome here. Rather it is a place for civility in discussion. That is what sets SubSim.com apart from other types of gaming forums, including the ones that you, evidently, are accustomed to.

Precisely why I recommend going to General Topics to see how heated debates are handled there. And believe me, there are some heated debates in there. I don't recall seeing a locked thread in GT since I joined, and so far only one member who frequents that forum is in the brig at the moment. We tend to keep things pretty clean on our own, despite our many differing views.

Originally Posted by Brunos

All I'm saying is: All that comes naturally should not be restricted. Emotions makes us humans not a machines. As they say it should be a mature forum ? What makes all of us mature ? Age or the way you treat yourself and others ? If somebody doesn't like natural emotions since they're too old to express them themselves is only their own problems. Or should we gather here on the day of first pension and act in cold-grey stable boring way ? If somebody so desperately wants to be that mature please add the age confirmation tab prior registration for everyone new to know this place as for old codgers..

Brunos, emotions certainly do make us human. I won't argue that. What makes Subsim mature is not age, it's behavior. What I'm trying to help you understand is that you have the right to speak freely. If I see a thread get locked down, I know that someone had to do their job. Doesn't really hurt my feelings any, and when you get right down to it it doesn't affect my rights as a member in any way. I can still speak freely as I wish. The trick is in knowing what is appropriate and what is not.

If nothing else, don't try to press the issues too hard - especially here in the SH5 forum. I think the moderators are probably fed up with some of the nonsense that has sprouted up over the last couple of months. As I have pointed out before, when a new game is released things tend to get really hairy until the first patch or two come out. Subsim is trying to keep the place from going to hell in a handbasket (as has happened on so many other sites). If that happens, then it's difficult for anyone to enjoy spending time here. Enjoy your time here. That's really what Subsim is all about.

[NefariousKoel]

Originally Posted by John Channing

You are spouting absolute nonsense. What Subsim is (or should be) is very adequatley summed up here (from the Subsim FAQ)...



Now, if you are incapable of posting in a mature fashion then that is going to be a problem. Other than that knock yourself out.

JCC

I think he's put forth a relatively reasonable and mature view on what he perceives around here.

He doesn't need intervention, warnings, or chastising. While he's correct about mods being rather one-sided around here, you guys have exercised restraint more than some would when faced by the angry villagers with pitchforks and torches. I believe Neal has some thanks due for keeping everyone level-headed (including mods) during the backlash, judging by a comment of yours awhile back:

Originally Posted by John Channing

We seem to have a lot of new people here who don't know how to, or are incapable of, carrying on a civil discussion. Neal seems to want to allow this for the time being... so be it. But that doesn't mean that people who disagree with the anti-Ubisoft posts have to hide away and let the ranters run wild, does it? Or are they the only ones now allowed to express their opinions?

(my bold)

It does tend to give the impression that the metaphoric itchy finger was on the trigger at some point and you don't seem to be the only one. I try to be empathetic as to mods having to read too much stuff they don't care, don't agree with, or don't want to read while trying to stay somewhat impartial and sane. Considering that, all has gone fairly well even though sentiment and opinion has been involved from everyone and, perhaps, further measures were desired.

Being moderators who are willing to state their opinions on same message boards will always result in some who disagree with them feeling as if they're walking a thin line.

I've not seen anyone kicked for stating their opinion without large amounts of cursing, yet, so it's all good.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by krashkart

Precisely why I recommend going to General Topics to see how heated debates are handled there. And believe me, there are some heated debates in there. I don't recall seeing a locked thread in GT since I joined, and so far only one member who frequents that forum is in the brig at the moment. We tend to keep things pretty clean on our own, despite our many differing views.

It's pretty good down there right now, but it has, historically, been the 'trouble' forum. I used to moderate that one back during the previous few US election cycles. Ugly. Frankly, SH5 is, comparatively, a cake walk. The locked thread volume on this forum is nothing compared to GT about a year ago.