Bermuda Triangle

[SteamWake]

I dunno GR I think the flight leader was in way over his head and would not listen to advice. Simple as that.

I suppose its possible that one of them if not the leader doinked the PBM and it went from bad to worst.

[Rhodes]

In a documentary about the triangle and the Flight 19, they said they are many more triangles out there. Ocean area's that a number of ships dissapered unexplain during decades. But only the bermuda has fame and spotligh. I remeber that the did the same shame in the coast of Africa with cabo verde islands or canaries as one triangle point.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

I suppose its possible that one of them if not the leader doinked the PBM and it went from bad to worst.

One thing comes to mind.

Rammstein airshow - frecce tricolori.

a single small jet plowed through a tight formation of other small jets of the same type causing the loss of 3 of the aircraft.

now

imagine a tightly grouped formation of TBMs... in a similar spread and formation size of the Frecce Tricolori chrash.

now, instead of plowing another TBM avenger through the formation, lets take an aircraft roughly 80 feet long, with a wingspan of almost 120 feet and plow it through the formation.

even if one Avenger bomber from flight 19 survived with light damage... he would have been flying a crippled aircraft in the dark, in less than ideal weather conditions, lost over rough seas... a sure recipe for disaster.

sure, the flight leader lost his situational awareness - possibly due to some equipment malfunctions. I further notice through research that not one of the aircraft in flight 19 was equipped with a functioning clock... an essential piece of navigational equipment.

things snowballed on the flight leader (who at one time placed another pilot in command of the flight) - this hints to me that they had finally talked him into heading west against all of his instinct.

unfortunately - and this is only my theory - but the flight headed west right into the point of collision with this PBM.

[CaptainHaplo]

GR - I have to dispute this theory my friend - for a few reasons. Flight 19 took of at 2:10 pm - while the flight itself was scheduled to go no farther than 123 miles east (over the Bahamas - less than an hour flight at their 140mph cruise speed), all the birds were fully loaded with fuel. This gave them a range of over 1,000 miles. The group was scheduled to make practice attack runs at Chicken and Hen shoals near Bimini Island, and did in fact carry out this activity. At ~3:50, Charles Taylor, the flight leader, reported that his compasses were erratic. Edward Powers, another pilot, was consulted and all the pilots compared compass headings. There was no consensus - but the discussion was overheard by Lt Robert Cox, another flight instructor in the vicinity of Ft Lauderdale. He contacted the flight and spoke with Taylor - who stated he was sure he was in the Keys, but not sure how far down. Cox instructed Taylor to put the sun on his port wing (making him head generally north) and fly till he hit the coast. Once he did - he would find Miami, and further on about ~20 miles, Ft. Lauderdale. He also indicated he would fly south to come assist - Taylor replied that he knew where he was and there was no need. Cox turned south anyway, yet his radio reception with the flight got worse - not better as would have occured had he been heading toward them.

Flight 19 was next heard about 4:25 - by the Port Everglades Rescue Facility. Taylor at that time ordered Powers to lead the flight NE - apparently assuming that Powers' compasses were functional. The only explanation for this is that Taylor was thinking he had somehow flown into the Gulf west of Florida - when in fact it appears (as is seen later) that he in fact was East of Florida - and this move sent Flight 19 out into the Atlantic. At 5:11, Taylor and Powers have an arguement - apparently Powers had turned the flight west. Taylor wanted to go east. However it happened, the flight is then heard stating "We are now heading 270 West". At 5:15, Taylor is heard stating "We will head 270 until we hit the beach or run out of gas." Oddly - radio reception never improved. At 5:54 Taylor refuses a frequency change requested by land stations. At 6:05, still no land - and having headed west, Taylor again asserts they are in the Gulf. An HF fix at this time places them ~225 miles NE of Ft Lauderdale, between New Smyrna Beach and Jacksonville. This means that the whole time they THOUGHT they were heading west, they were heading N. Oddly, neither IFF nor the ZBX gear on any aircraft was ever picked up, though the flight did confirm their IFF equipment was on.

At 5:55 one pilot states "we may have to ditch at any minute" - but then nothing else is discussed for a while regarding fuel. Obviously whatever was going on was affecting the fuel gauges, because Taylow was heard at 6:37 asking Powers what their current course was. The final radio signal, was at 7:04, from Fox Tare 3.

Initial estimates of fuel had them out running out by 6:30, then 7, and later 8pm. Avenger pilots have claimed it could have been as late as even 10pm based on leaning back as much as possible, but given that would have been done from the outset, somewhere between 7-8 is a reasonable assumption.

Which brings us to the Mariner. It exploded at 7:50, and the freighter Gaines Mill reported that it was directly under the aircraft when it exploded. No other aircraft were noted in the vicinity, but that proves nothing.

What does raise a problem with the midair crash theory is the USS Solomon. The Solomon had the PBM on its radarscope at the time of the explosion, and no other objects were noted in the vicinity. Had Flight 19 been in the area - radar contact should have shown up, and that close radio contact would also have been clear. Also, no debris was found that places any Avenger as involved in the explosion. This would indicate that Flight 19 was not involved directly with the loss of the Mariner. What happened to it however is simply another mystery on its own.

Now - as to the triangle itself - there are lots of debate on its actual shape. It is however, not the only area in the world known for disappearances. Check the Devil's Sea off of Japan for example. Also - one of the great lakes - Michigan I think - is know for disappearances at a high and odd rate.

If you want real weirdness when looking at the Bermuda Triangle - do the research on Sting 27. An F4 Phantom II, piloted by a trainee under instruction of John Romero (holder of 2 DFC's), it was lost on September 10, 1971. The standard summary sheet on this incident is highly redacted, but does show a box labeled "suspected point of impact" followed by a later arrow showing "radar contact lost". The distance and verbage indicates SOMETHING hit Sting 27 in midair. Also according to the report - Sting 29 and 30 were in the area and noted an "object" in the area - though what that is - is not defined. The most we get out of it is that Sting 29 dropped to 1500 ft and noted an "area of disturbance" in the water - describing it as "an area of water discoloration, oblong in shape, approximately 100x200', with its axis running N/S, its southern tip appeared to be below the surface, and the northern tip appeared to be above. So basically the pilot saw something sticking up out of the water. Couldn't have been an oil slick. The Coast Guard Cutter Steadfast was less than 5nm away and began searching immediately. No trace of Sting 27 was ever found.

You can also research AB524, the loss of a KA-6 assigned to the USS Kennedy..... its also a rather odd incident.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Avenger pilots have claimed it could have been as late as even 10pm based on leaning back as much as possible, but given that would have been done from the outset, somewhere between 7-8 is a reasonable assumption.

which could at least in theory put the TBM avenger flight and the PBM aircraft in roughly the same position at the same time.

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

What does raise a problem with the midair crash theory is the USS Solomon. The Solomon had the PBM on its radarscope at the time of the explosion, and no other objects were noted in the vicinity. Had Flight 19 been in the area - radar contact should have shown up, and that close radio contact would also have been clear.

given the rapidly deteriorating meteorological conditions at the time it is entirely probable... especially in early radar systems in use at the time, that the USS Solomon was experiencing something known as "Anomalous Propagation" wherin various meteorological events can render radar more or less useless at even short ranges.

While one aircraft may be observed, another may not. I have - on one occasion, in particularly poor weather experienced this, as air traffic controllers - even with modern radar did not even pick up my primary contact which - on a clear day - even a flock of birds would likely give off.

(my transponder was not activated at the time) and i was about 10 miles away from the radar site. It was not until some figiting with the transponder and finally getting it to work that my aircraft appeared to controllers out of nowhere. Though i was not located in any rain - there was lots of it around, with rapidly reducing pressure and temperature. with lightning appearing to the distant west.

Based on communications between the controller and other aircraft in the area at the time, he had no problems seeing those aircraft of similar size on radar.

early radar systems were particularly prone to this sort of thing, especially at sea, with rapidly changing temperature conditions, thunderstorm or precipitation activity. - which was the case that night. - furthermore anomolous propogation is more prone to occur after sunset believe it or not as the earth's ionosphere settles in at lower altitudes than it sits during the day.

Reports as to the proximity of the SS Gaines Mills to the explosion it observed differ. I have seen accounts which place the ship within spitting distance of the explosion, to reports that the estimate placed it to within a few miles.

either way, dark had by now set in for at least an hour... it is entirely possible that the first and only indication that an aircraft was overhead would have been the explosion itself... at this time, nobody aboard the Gaines Mills would have likely had any clue as to how many aircraft might have been involved in the explosion just by looking up and seing a ball of fire.

truth is we will probably never know.

however, the mid-air collision theory is not by any means filled with holes. Radio location places the avenger flight about 140 miles east of the location where the PBM exploded, heading due west.

given an average ground speed of 140 - 150 mph - it is entirely possible that these two flights converged at the PBM's crash site

The mid-air theory is plausible, makes sense and is one of the more logical explanations.

[Wolfehunter]

Bermuda triangle always fascinated me. Great way to vanish..

[Aramike]

Honestly, the methane gas theory seems to be the most sound, in my opinion.

...although, in the interest of full disclosure, it was far more interesting when I thought of the triangle as just a wierd place things have inexplicably happened than when the science starting coming out.

Unsolved mysteries with an emphasis on the paranormal are just fun to contemplate, I think.