It begins..

[Turbografx]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

The burden of proof is laid at our feet every day. Operate a motor vehicle in the state of MD and it is wise to have your drivers license, proof of insurance, current registration and a copy of the emission certificate. Any of these missing...tough luck. Perhaps a new nationwide law should be having a copy of your birth cert is required. I just add it to my other important paperwork.

The problem is not that you have to have an ID or even that you must have it with you and present it. Rather it is with what conditions are entailed by "reasonable suspicion".

In most things this is clear cut and impartial:

"Reasonable suspicion" of drunk driving would be something like swerving erratically, driving extremely fast or slow, crashing into a lamp-post. I.e. visibly breaking the law/endangering others.

"Reasonable suspicion" of professional mal-practice would include a patient dying from a anesthetic overdose, a house burning down from shoddy wiring, selling drinks to under-aged people. I.e. breaking the law/endangering others.

"Reasonable suspicion" of being an illegal immigrant on the other hand is mostly based on your appearance. Being a little too brown or publicly speaking in a language other than English. I.e. not being WASP enough.

[SteamWake]

Got to be more to this story than meets the eye.

I mean the guy had a SS number and they couldent verify that??

"They acted stupidly"

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by tater

Anyone arrested without a DL should face jail and a massive penalty. They should also be investigated WRT citizenship and deported.

I don't see how having valid DL can be used as proof of legal right to be in this country, unless you are going to require every single person who does have that right to go out and get one just for that purpose, which is ridiculous.

Not everyone drives, or wants to drive, or needs to drive, or is physically able to drive. Why should they have to deal with the freakin' DMV just for the purpose of getting a DL to show authorities to prove they're not here illegally?

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Turbografx

What if our immigration problem was with Ireland, like in the 19th century. To crack down on this I'll just detain people who I "reasonably suspect" of being illegal Irish immigrants (all whites, red-heads, drunks, people who talk funny)

While i see where you are coming from, i offer two valid counter points

1. As far as im aware nobody was detained. you simply have to spend 10 seconds showing a valid proof of citizenship (which as a flight school owner i have to verify everyone's proof if citizenship all the time... so its not any big deal)

2. You say "what if our immigration problem was with ireland"

to that i simply say this...

lets say you are standing in a corner shop one day, and a cop walks in and asks you to put your hands on the counter. He pats you down, checks your ID, radios it in to HQ and in the mean time you dont have any idea what the heck is going on. After about a 10 minute process the cop says

"sorry about that sir, we are trying to aprehend a dangerous suspect in the area, and you match the discription we were given, have a nice day."

ok cool... no big deal IMHO

same difference with the illegal immigrant document check.

if you ask me the United States has become far too sensitive with this whole "profiling" nonsense.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Turbografx

The problem is not that you have to have an ID or even that you must have it with you and present it. Rather it is with what conditions are entailed by "reasonable suspicion".

In most things this is clear cut and impartial:

"Reasonable suspicion" of drunk driving would be something like swerving erratically, driving extremely fast or slow, crashing into a lamp-post. I.e. visibly breaking the law/endangering others.

"Reasonable suspicion" of professional mal-practice would include a patient dying from a anesthetic overdose, a house burning down from shoddy wiring, selling drinks to under-aged people. I.e. breaking the law/endangering others.

"Reasonable suspicion" of being an illegal immigrant on the other hand is mostly based on your appearance. Being a little too brown or publicly speaking in a language other than English. I.e. not being WASP enough.

In this particular instance the man held a CDL and is required to stop at a weigh stations. He was operating a commercial vehicle. This was not a random selection. He is supposed to provide his CDL, Medical Card and insurance plus his logs. For me that would have need enough ID. However, if the AZ states that SOP is to ask for a Birth Cert then the officer can ask.

I understand the probably cause is assessed by color or language spoken. Thus the profiling associated with this law.

[Turbografx]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

ok cool... no big deal IMHO

Unless you don't have any ID on you, in which case you're looking at least an hour of your time. (taken down-town while the appropriate research/paperwork is fetched) For example, I only started driving last year, for 4 years of my adult life I no had legal, portable ID. If someone had asked for my ID at random the best I could have done was a library/credit card.

Also, maybe its not a big deal as far as hassle or time taken is concerned but knowing you were pulled aside based entirely on your skin color has got to get annoying after awhile. You would know it to be inescapable reality for you while others never even get a second-thought. It might be enough to make me undergo the Jackson bleach bath treatment.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Turbografx

Unless you don't have any ID on you, in which case you're looking at least an hour of your time. (taken down-town while the appropriate research/paperwork is fetched) For example, I only started driving last year, for 4 years of my adult life I had legal, portable ID. If someone had asked for my ID at random the best I could have done was a library/credit card.

The department of motor vehicle can provide a legal ID card with photo. This is not a drivers license, just a legal ID with photo. Credible evidence of who you are no matter where you go in the US.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

if you ask me the United States has become far too sensitive with this whole "profiling" nonsense.

Would you like it if mentally handicapped, middle-aged white men were profiled?

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Turbografx

Unless you don't have any ID on you, in which case you're looking at least an hour of your time. (taken down-town while the appropriate research/paperwork is fetched) For example, I only started driving last year, for 4 years of my adult life I had legal, portable ID. If someone had asked for my ID at random the best I could have done was a library/credit card.

well what sort of intelligent person leaves the house without ID?

I understand that if a person waits to the age of 50 to get a driver's license then they wont be able to prove who they are from 0-49

so how do we solve that? national ID?

I lean both ways on this issue

1. i dont support the power of the government to say "papers please" at random - ie... you have to have been speeding, have a tail light out, robbed a bank, shot someone etc

2. i do think that America has a serious illegal immigration issue that needs to be handled. and so far, our Republican AND democrat governments have failed at doing this. (and other things)

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Torvald Von Mansee

Would you like it if mentally handicapped, middle-aged white men were profiled?

I don't know, you tell me. Why was it everytime my dad went to airport he was always pulled out of line by security and searched? He was in his 70's using a cane. Without fail he was searched. EVERYTIME!

Why is it my boss with a last name of Sanchez is on the terrorist watch list?

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Torvald Von Mansee

Would you like it if mentally handicapped, middle-aged white men were profiled?

what are they guilty of? if it is a threat to the national economy or security... profile the **** out of them.

PROFILE ME i dont care.

as long as im profiled because i broke the law - thats fine.

i dont support pulling people over every 2 minutes just to say "proof of citizenship please"

however, if they are engaged in a routine traffic stop, or if they are breaking the law or doing any other thing that requires that certain documents must be shown... go ahead, stop them, ask them for a proof of citizenship. it is painless and should be something that could be verified in less than 90 seconds

[tater]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

I don't see how having valid DL can be used as proof of legal right to be in this country, unless you are going to require every single person who does have that right to go out and get one just for that purpose, which is ridiculous.

Not everyone drives, or wants to drive, or needs to drive, or is physically able to drive. Why should they have to deal with the freakin' DMV just for the purpose of getting a DL to show authorities to prove they're not here illegally?

You can get an ID card at the DMV as well, without having to drive. It's useful for cashing checks, proof of ID with a credit card, etc.

In this case the guy had a CDL. He should have to prove ID. Again, the CDL should have been enough, but democrats (it's always them) have diluted the usefulness of DLs by allowing illegals to get them. It is the law in NM that illegals can get a DL. Pure insanity.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by tater

Pure insanity.

The USA is no longer a valid nation.

it is simply a title applied to a land mass.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

I don't see how having valid DL can be used as proof of legal right to be in this country, unless you are going to require every single person who does have that right to go out and get one just for that purpose, which is ridiculous.

Not everyone drives, or wants to drive, or needs to drive, or is physically able to drive. Why should they have to deal with the freakin' DMV just for the purpose of getting a DL to show authorities to prove they're not here illegally?

The department of motor vehicle issues legit id cards for non-drivers also. Photo included. My mother-in-law never drove but she had this ID card from the motor vehicle dept.

however, if they are engaged in a routine traffic stop,or if they are breaking the law or doing any other thing that requires that certain documents must be shown... go ahead, stop them, ask them for a proof of citizenship. it is painless and should be something that could be verified in less than 90 seconds

You really want to bankrupt Arizona don't ya.

But anyway didn't anyone inform this chancer in the story that the State law isn't really law yet and hasn't even been given a definate start date, plus it is not likely that it will ever be in its current form.