Burn Witches! Burn!

[Placoderm]

Originally Posted by Flopper

Right, then. Chalk another one up to "no matter what, the devs are to blame."

Right, then. Chalk another one up to "no matter what, the devs are without any blame."


I think the true answer lies somewhere in-between...

[Flopper]

Originally Posted by Placoderm

Right, then. Chalk another one up to "no matter what, the devs are without any blame."


I think the true answer lies somewhere in-between...

You can put me down for "The devs ARE NOT to blame." Next question.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Flopper

Right, then. Chalk another one up to "no matter what, the devs are to blame."

Really - honestly, does it matter who's fault it was ?

Hopefully the patch will sort out the serious problems in a few weeks, till then either find something else to play (I've rediscovered SH3 GWX) or mod the game and play it - it's not a bad game , just needs some tweaking.

But arguing over who's fault it is won't change the way the game is at the moment , or even fix it - so why bother?

Especially as you are never going to find out who was responsible - so its all subjective anyway...

[Flopper]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

Really - honestly, does it matter who's fault it was ?

Hopefully the patch will sort out the serious problems in a few weeks, till then either find something else to play (I've rediscovered SH3 GWX) or mod the game and play it - it's not a bad game , just needs some tweaking.

But arguing over who's fault it is won't change the way the game is at the moment , or even fix it - so why bother?

Especially as you are never going to find out who was responsible - so its all subjective anyway...

I thought it was the topic of this thread.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Flopper

I thought it was the topic of this thread.

It is - and it's a fruitless topic IMO

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Flopper

I thought it was the topic of this thread.

Not according to the OP, which was 'we should be supporting the devs, not stabbing them in the back'.

[Flopper]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Not according to the OP, which was 'we should be supporting the devs, not stabbing them in the back'.

I almost quoted that as the second sentence of my post. I guess I'm missing something.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Flopper

I almost quoted that as the second sentence of my post. I guess I'm missing something.

Er, I'm saying the point of the thread wasn't to try to find out who's fault it was or who was resposible for it - whatever 'it' may be (DRM/Bugs/Lack of soup recipes). Your reply read as if you were saying that it was the topic of the thread... is that what you were saying?

[Flopper]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Er, I'm saying the point of the thread wasn't to try to find out who's fault it was or who was resposible for it - whatever 'it' may be (DRM/Bugs/Lack of soup recipes). Your reply read as if you were saying that it was the topic of the thread... is that what you were saying?

The way I read it, the topic of the thread is about the current witch hunt going on (blaming the devs). I have to admit, I'm surprised so many people not only don't support the devs, but they blame them for the state of sh5.

Personally, I don't see how they could be to blame, and maybe that's because I'm a dev myself, and have been through so many projects and know how they work. The posts of McBeck ring very true for me.

Privateer said try to put yourself in their shoes for a month. Still, so many just sit on the sidelines and take pot shots. It's quite easy to do, and apparently quite fashionable. What amuses me is I suspect that half the people in the "the devs are to blame" crowd wouldn't know a cosine from a derivative.

My original statement which compared blaming devs to blaming soldiers was meant to be across the board, not just pertaining to Ubi or SH5. I don't even have the game.

I'll give this thread a rest now.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Flopper

You can put me down for "The devs ARE NOT to blame." Next question.

Yes, you've said this a few times, but I'm curious to hear what your logical rationale is, apart from a tenuous analogy.

See, for someone to say that the devs are "not to blame" must mean that they consider the devs to be dumb Lemmings that did exclusively what they were told to do by "the suits"TM. Yet I can't imagine a gang of Ubisoft France people standing over the shoulder of the devs saying "type this, remove that, change this", can you? Heck, I reckon most of Ubisoft France would have no idea about the intricacies of U-boat warfare. Why would they?

See, I think the devs are actually smarter than that. I give them credit. I don't think they are robots at all. I think they had a level of autonomy to influence design and content - and if Alex's blog view is an indication of how he managed SH5, then I am sure of it.

So, let's look at what I mean by "level of autonomy". That would imply that they had some input, pitched a concept, an idea. Heck, they had to convince Ubisoft France in the first place, and as Dan said himself, Ubisoft didn't have to agree to do another SH game. This statement by one of the team leads alone demonstrates that the devs had at least some autonomy over the design and content.

Now, autonomy means control. With control comes responsibility. With responsibility comes accountability.

So all it would take for the devs to be part of the "blamestorming" would be one autonomous, heck even semi-autonomous, decision made by the PM, the team leads or even the team. Essentially ANY decision THEY made that affected the final product.

Or are you maintaining that the devs were mere Lemmings that sat there making no decisions at all and simply typed only what Ubisoft France told them to? If so, then I think that's more offensive to their intelligence than simply saying they suxxors. At least in the latter case their creative input is being acknowledged, even if not favourably. You're simply failing to acknowledge it at all. In fact, by not attributing any blame to the devs, you are essentially saying that all the GOOD parts of the game are the handiwork of Ubisoft France as well. I mean, you're not trying to say that the bad stuff is the fault of "the suits"TM yet the good stuff is the result of the devs, are you? Because it doesn't work that way.

Anyway, it's all moot. I don't care who's to blame. As long as Ubisoft (collective) fixes it, that's all that really matters. Let the blamestorming happen behind the Ubisoft boardroom doors, if they even feel it necessary, is what I say.

What we do know for sure though is that after reviews like PC Gamer's, mud will stick to everyone involved in SH5.

BTW Flopper, I'm a program director. Started life as a software engineer and worked up. I've been in the shoes of both the devs and the suits. After 12 years or project managing I think I have a bit of an idea how projects work.

[Reaves]

Originally Posted by privateer

As there are many threads laced with slams towards the Romain Devs,
I'd just like to say a few things.

I don't really care much about the state of this Game so far.
I have this feeling that it will all be good someday.
Much like SH3.

I don't feel I got burned by getting the Game.
I expected MUCH worse!

And delays of patches means little to me.
I know they are working on them.
I've met Dan, and I trust him.

I can joke with him about things and he understands that I joke.
He also listens and cares more then many of you can see.

I'm sure the other Devs do also.

We only harm ourselves by placeing pressure on them
and questioning thier intents.
Put yourselves in thier shoes for just a month!

I doubt few here could even come close to what they attempt!

Yes, they are under some extreme pressure!
Both from Ubi higher ups, and worst of all US!
We should be supporting the Devs!
Not stabbing them in the back!

Flame Suit is on!

Regards!

I paid for a product. I demand my monies worth.

If I failed this badly in my workplace I would be fired. I deal with custom applications that handly crucial aspects of our business in hundreds of locations accross Australia. If I can't deliver on the promised time-line I announce it and state the reason.

If the devs are under-resourced it is UBI's problem. They should be informing us of the delay and of a new ETA. This is a joke. We are paying customers and we are treated like fecal matter.

YOU can be happy but how dare you criticise others for complaining when it's valid. We are the ones who have been stabbed, in the pocket that holds our wallets and purses (in some rare cases.)

People who mock those who complain should be banned just as much as I would be banned for insulting you. Saying we bitch and whine are insults and I will not stand for this.

Good day sir.

[Capt_Sluggo]

Originally Posted by Reaves

Saying we bitch and whine are insults and I will not stand for this.

Yes, bitch and whine. Bitch and whine. Bitch and whine. Then bitch and whine some more.

I have close friends who, like me, have bought every version of SH (and FS and Far Cry ad infinitum) for decades. We were and are very informed buyers. We can read all the reviews both from magazine pundits and real users via forums. We can make informed decisions to buy the product or not. We made our choices based on experience and an abundance of published information, and so can everyone else.

If one made the decision to pre-purchase SH5 (and "surprise" disappointment is to serve as the basis for bitch and whine)... well, given releases 3 and 4 and the vast information concerning both releases in this forum and in other sources one should have known exactly what to expect. No excuse. SH5 is a work in progress, like its predecessors.

If you don't like the product, sorry but no sympathy here. You had a lot of information regarding its faults from Day One. Should not have bought it.

[Zedi]

Originally Posted by Capt_Sluggo

...

If you don't like the product, sorry but no sympathy here.

...

I swear, I wish I could have you guys as my customers, would be my dream job.
That's all I have to say as I got my official warnings, so I need to shut up.

/dive

[Flopper]

Originally Posted by JScones

Yes, you've said this a few times, but I'm curious to hear what your logical rationale is, apart from a tenuous analogy.

I believe I said it just the once, if I'm not mistaken.

Originally Posted by JScones

See, for someone to say that the devs are "not to blame" must mean that they consider the devs to be dumb Lemmings that did exclusively what they were told to do by "the suits"TM.

That logic is weak.

Originally Posted by JScones

Yet I can't imagine a gang of Ubisoft France people standing over the shoulder of the devs saying "type this, remove that, change this", can you? Heck, I reckon most of Ubisoft France would have no idea about the intricacies of U-boat warfare. Why would they?

I can't imagine it either.

Originally Posted by JScones

See, I think the devs are actually smarter than that. I give them credit. I don't think they are robots at all. I think they had a level of autonomy to influence design and content - and if Alex's blog view is an indication of how he managed SH5, then I am sure of it.

I also think they are smart humans.

Originally Posted by JScones

So, let's look at what I mean by "level of autonomy". That would imply that they had some input, pitched a concept, an idea. Heck, they had to convince Ubisoft France in the first place, and as Dan said himself, Ubisoft didn't have to agree to do another SH game. This statement by one of the team leads alone demonstrates that the devs had at least some autonomy over the design and content.

Now, autonomy means control. With control comes responsibility. With responsibility comes accountability.

So all it would take for the devs to be part of the "blamestorming" would be one autonomous, heck even semi-autonomous, decision made by the PM, the team leads or even the team. Essentially ANY decision THEY made that affected the final product.

Or are you maintaining that the devs were mere Lemmings that sat there making no decisions at all and simply typed only what Ubisoft France told them to? If so, then I think that's more offensive to their intelligence than simply saying they suxxors. At least in the latter case their creative input is being acknowledged, even if not favourably. You're simply failing to acknowledge it at all. In fact, by not attributing any blame to the devs, you are essentially saying that all the GOOD parts of the game are the handiwork of Ubisoft France as well. I mean, you're not trying to say that the bad stuff is the fault of "the suits"TM yet the good stuff is the result of the devs, are you? Because it doesn't work that way.

I'm maintaining that the responsibilty for success or failure of a product lies squarely on the shoulders of whomever signs the paychecks.

Originally Posted by JScones

Anyway, it's all moot. I don't care who's to blame.

Well, that was quite a dissertation then, considering you don't care and it's all moot.

Originally Posted by JScones

As long as Ubisoft (collective) fixes it, that's all that really matters. Let the blamestorming happen behind the Ubisoft boardroom doors, if they even feel it necessary, is what I say.

Amen.

Originally Posted by JScones

What we do know for sure though is that after reviews like PC Gamer's, mud will stick to everyone involved in SH5.

Perhaps, but mud washes off fairly easily.

Originally Posted by JScones

BTW Flopper, I'm a program director. Started life as a software engineer and worked up. I've been in the shoes of both the devs and the suits. After 12 years or project managing I think I have a bit of an idea how projects work.

Congrats!

[Pintea]

Originally Posted by Kresge

I'll blame Ubi management if they ever decide on SHVI and keep the same dev team. This is the sort of stuff people get fired over. The third iteration of a product should be an improvement. I don't care how nice the guys are, or if they had a low budget, or short timeline. They screwed up plain and simple. They had a great product to start with and disemboweled the thing.

Do you think sh5 was done with the same team as sh3 ? or even sh4 ? or even sh4 add-on ?
Take it as you will...