Game end sequence ***Spoiler alert***

[LiveGoat]

What's chilling about that pic that Karamazov posted is that from across the room it looks like an abstract painting.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Huh, I have not finished the game yet, so do I have to wait till then to try to annex my nieghbors yard, you know , for the greater glory ?

I will wait to be outraged untill they release
" Sid Miers, Trains - Germany 1939-1945 edition " now that would cause a controversy.

Come on, games don't cause kids to go out and do things, it's just a copeing device they use after words to figure out why they did it, while bad parenting and bad school systems get another pass.

[captainprid]

In hindsight I have realised my other posts were wrong, I think Ubisoft have a moral obligation to start regional support groups wherever the game is sold. They could be called "PotEntial NazI's anonymouS" or "PENIS" for short and would involve weaning people away from potential National Socialism to just socialism.
At these meetings kids who have been exposed to the evil of the sequences in the game can be given gluten free biscuits and ethically sustainable Orange Juice while being encouraged to cry and talk about their fears in an open and non-judgemental environment.
Ubisoft meanwhile, should be forced to give 3/4 of their total profits to be split equally between holocaust rememberance funds and Joseph Stalin's rehabilitaion in to main stream society fund............


Oh and for guys from countries that don't understand it, this is called sarcasm!

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

I'm with you on this one - this has been blown completely out of proportion.

For God's sake we're all adults here , I'm so sick of do-gooders telling me what I can and can't play/watch etc etc.

Reality check - it's an end screen in a computer game - it's not a call to arms for the Nazi party. If you don't like it , change it. Kyliana has posted a mod to enable you to do just that.

And just to show how stupid this is - we've gone from a game end scene, to photo's of the holocaust in one thread.

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. Don't forget that Ubisoft had to pull out the copies from Germany because some swastikas unintentionally was left inside the game. Germany has laws against nazi symbols for a reason. So it ain't exactly stupid. History can easily repeat itself, if we as mankind don't watch out and inform the youth. That's why the official version counts as a mistake, which should never have been made. Whatever the mod community then does afterwards is another matter.

[danasan]

Moin Moin again,

I personally do not blame any computer game to lead guys running amok.

I personally prefer accurate flags for being historically correct. I can't imagine a stock version of Bismarck running the Denmark strait...

I can put on all the flags in my computer game I want. BUT: I am not allowed to. Not even in my private rooms here in Germany. It is a special case here, maybe in Austria as well. Showing these items anybody else could lead to an investigation by our Verfassungsschutz.

We are still running all these reports on history channel dealing with Hitler. All aspects are shown as close as possible from nowadays point of view. Honestly, there must be some kind of "aura" around that.A lot of people might be influenced by this "aura".

You can still see and feel this "aura" in some places here. During my time in the army I was sent to Sonthofen. The dining room is one of the largest anyway. It is 109 m long. That is somewhat 330 ft. You could park two DDs in it. There are some images available. Very impressive.

Back to topic:

The image we were talking about is fine. No problem with that outside Germany.

danasan

Originally Posted by Carotio

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. Don't forget that Ubisoft had to pull out the copies from Germany because some swastikas unintentionally was left inside the game. Germany has laws against nazi symbols for a reason. So it ain't exactly stupid. History can easily repeat itself, if we as mankind don't watch out and inform the youth. That's why the official version counts as a mistake, which should never have been made. Whatever the mod community then does afterwards is another matter.

I'm sorry, but this is just getting silly. Do people really believe that one picture in a game is going to incite mass NAZIism? I fully agree that lessons must be learnt from the past, that's exactly why during my education I clearly remember being shown NAZI propaganda images and videos of parades and the like, and then talking about and analyzing them. Funnily enough, over 15 years later and none of my old school friends have since gone and joined a neo-nazi group, or started rounding up and killing jews!

You don't stop history from repeating itself by covering up every bad image from the past with a lovely little photo of some cute puppies dancing under a rainbow in a cloud of fairy dust!

[Faamecanic]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

It is well known Donitz was a Nazi and loyal to Hitler. He would not have received the promotions he did during the war if he was not.

That does not mean however that every Nazi/Nazi supporter supported every facet of nazi ideology, including the extermination of the Jewish people (although I seriously doubt every high ranking member of the Wehrmacht were as ignorant of the "Final Solution" during the war as they later claimed ).

Probably the best judgement on Donitz was rendered by his peers, the Allied admirals who fought against him, who were against his being tried as a war criminal since they were of the opinion that he had fought a tough, but clean naval war.

Back to the game, there has always been a dichotomy inherent in playing any type of realistic simulation. You can despise a particular regime, while still admiring their military prowess from a strictly professional viewpoint. The U.S. Army studied the German campaigns on the OstFront for years to get tips on how to beat the Soviets.

I despise both Hitler's and Stalin's regime, yet have no problem commanding German or Soviet pixeltruppen in CMBB, IL-2, SH5, et al. The purpose of a simulation for me is to recreate the what if factor, what would I do as commander in a particular situation, how could I do better than the real commander, who I command, whether Nazis, Soviets, Japanese, Americans, British, Canadians, Israelis, Syrians, Egyptians, Guerilla irregulars, et al. has little relevance, it is the intellectual challenge which is interesting.

Right... agree 100%...we were saying the same thing, but in a different way. Doenitz "says" he had NO knowledge of "the final solution" until he saw an article in the Stars and Stripes the day he surrendered and was arrested. Is that true....only he knows.

I do know that the US Navy leadership does not know EVERYTHING the US Army leadership has in works at the Pentagon. So it is possible the KM did not know.... although I find that hard to believe.

[Faamecanic]

Originally Posted by danasan

As I pointed out, i am somewhat older aged. We grew up with the collective fault. We (born after 1945 do not have).

I do not feel responsible for 39 - 45, and as long as dealing with history in a adequate way, we (germans) should be able to discuss things like that.

But there is still a minority here in Germany which is fed and or influenced by images like that, swastikas etc.

I have been in touch with youngsters, 16 years old, preaching the old story over and over again.

As long as somebody is able to abstact reality from fiction, like you and I can, it is OK.

Some guys here can' t so far...

Good post.....

I myself spent 6 years in Germany (back in the early 90's) and one area that Germany woke up to was you had to teach about Hitler and what happened during WWII. Its not the swastika that makes evil (after all isnt it a Hindu religous symbol that Hitler bastardized). Its ignorance.....

All my German friends (two of which were in the army) that were my age (40 now) were keenly aware of what happened.

Not a single one then golrified nazism...and actually were quite fearful that something could happen like that again. Especially as the Berlin Wall fell and East Germans and Polish were coming over to West Germany...and a lot of resentment built up, and with that feelings of hatred. To the point where we walked by an appartment used to house impovrished Polish people, and there was a swastika on the wall and "Polen Raus!" painted underneath. My friends were more than disgusted by this....

Like you stated ...its all about reality and fiction. Saying that the closing image from the game is horrible and evil and should be removed because it may make some young person a nazi, is like saying the Discovery channel/History/Military channel should never play "World At War" or some other documentary because it shows Nazi's.

While I was in Germany I took a tour of Dachau.... the worst tour I have ever been on. I took LOTS of pictures....and as my children have grown up I have made SURE to show them the pictures (when they were old enough) just so the could SEE the evil men are capable of and to question what leaders say and not blindly follow. I also showed them pictures of the coloseum in Nuremburg that was supposed to last 1,000 years (the time Hitler said his empire would last).... not because I wanted to glorify Hitler...but because it was history.

[Yak]

I honestly expected a scripted final mission with a thinly veiled copy of the Das Boot ending, only your boat doesn't get off under-sea rock shelf.
The End.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Faamecanic

Good post.....

I myself spent 6 years in Germany (back in the early 90's) and one area that Germany woke up to was you had to teach about Hitler and what happened during WWII. Its not the swastika that makes evil (after all isnt it a Hindu religous symbol that Hitler bastardized). Its ignorance.....

All my German friends (two of which were in the army) that were my age (40 now) were keenly aware of what happened.

Not a single one then golrified nazism...and actually were quite fearful that something could happen like that again. Especially as the Berlin Wall fell and East Germans and Polish were coming over to West Germany...and a lot of resentment built up, and with that feelings of hatred. To the point where we walked by an appartment used to house impovrished Polish people, and there was a swastika on the wall and "Polen Raus!" painted underneath. My friends were more than disgusted by this....

Like you stated ...its all about reality and fiction. Saying that the closing image from the game is horrible and evil and should be removed because it may make some young person a nazi, is like saying the Discovery channel/History/Military channel should never play "World At War" or some other documentary because it shows Nazi's.

While I was in Germany I took a tour of Dachau.... the worst tour I have ever been on. I took LOTS of pictures....and as my children have grown up I have made SURE to show them the pictures (when they were old enough) just so the could SEE the evil men are capable of and to question what leaders say and not blindly follow. I also showed them pictures of the coloseum in Nuremburg that was supposed to last 1,000 years (the time Hitler said his empire would last).... not because I wanted to glorify Hitler...but because it was history.

Excellent post

Just because I've now seen the end screen (containing a U Boat , 3 flags and an eagle) I will not be running out and voting BNP , nor will I start reading the Daily Mail or watch the fox network (well maybe Fox now and again)

The whole point is that these issues are subjective. What one person sees in something is not the same as another. If you don't like it - don't do it, But don't tell me I can't do it or we will fall out!

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Carotio

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. Don't forget that Ubisoft had to pull out the copies from Germany because some swastikas unintentionally was left inside the game. Germany has laws against nazi symbols for a reason. So it ain't exactly stupid. History can easily repeat itself, if we as mankind don't watch out and inform the youth. That's why the official version counts as a mistake, which should never have been made. Whatever the mod community then does afterwards is another matter.

I'm sorry - you may see it as Nazi Glorification, I don't. All I see is an ending screen in a game. I see a U Boat , 3 flags and an eagle. It does not make me want to join a neo nazi party - nor does it make me want to persecute minorities. If it offends you then mod it out using Kylania's mod. But don't presume to tell me how it affects me.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Carotio

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. .

THIS.

[Ducimus]

I swear, some people must be incredibly blind, or totally ignorant of propaganda, or what message can be conveyed through the proper use of artistic rendering. If anyone else here can remember back to the arts and humanities lectures you had to suffer through in college.......

First, lets uncensor the end screen shall we?
(Excuse the quick edit in MSPaint)


And here is an evaluation of this composition.

1.) There is great emphasis on the flags, occupying the back ground, and center stage. Not one flag, but THREE of them. Adding more emphasis to the symbology.

2.) The reich eagle in the foreground. It can only be the reich eagle, and it is symbology that is occuping the fore ground.

3.) The uboat, in the middle, is being wrapped in the above symbology. Keep in mind that symbols are representive of an idea, or ideaology. The uboat, is in effect, being blanketed in the symbols of the ideology of the 3rd reich. This is called propaganda. Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. This is political in nature

4.) The context of the message smacks of negationism. Together, in conjunction with all of the symbolism, it is depicting the 3rd reich in a favorable light.

5.) The composition, and theme of the overall picture is a carbon copy of Nazi propaganda posters.

6.) The flowery rose petals shower, indicating heroic" and triumphant over the existing symbolism. I would say, this is to infer that the 3rd reich is valient, heroic, and victorious.

Here are some other posters that infer similar themes.



(this one should look familiar)




Now, things like the swaztika should be displayed... in historical context. To do otherwise is to whitewash history. But it should be displayed nothing more then the flag that happened to be flying at the time. But there is a line between historical depiction, and glorification, and the end game screen crosses that line in its artistic composition, excessive use of symbolism, and inference of a valiant and heroic 3rd reich at sea.

Under no circumstances should the 3rd reich, in any manner, be displayed in a favorable light. Individual heroism certainly, but not collectively as a whole as that one end game screen does.

Considering it is part of an official release, it can be construed as an endorsement of the ideolgy behind the symbology considering how it is being depicted and displayed. I cannot fathom how some people cannot understand that.

[IanC]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I swear, some people must be incredibly blind, or totally ignorant of propaganda, or what message can be conveyed through the proper use of artistic rendering. If anyone else here can remember back to the arts and humanities lectures you had to suffer through in college.......

I cannot fathom how some people cannot understand that.

Please stop talking down to people who don't agree with you, thinking they don't understand. We all understand that the game image looks just like propaganda posters of the day. It's suppose to look like one.

Now the only question is: Is Ubisoft promoting Nazims by depicting a 40's German propaganda poster in a sim where you play a 40's German U-boat captain?

I say of course not. Anybody who makes that leap between fiction and reality needs to get his head checked. Video games is the least of his problems.
I agree with a previous poster, this is getting more than ridiculous.

[LeBabouin]

This picture is far from any nazi propaganda or glorification. Germany has lost both WW's, even those of the 19th century, so I can't see how it could be glorified. This picture is just a poor cartoonesque imitation of the propaganda style shown in Ducimus last post. It has no text, no soul, a bad composition, ugly colours, and is far from Leny Riefensthal's work. Kylania's replacement picture is good but reminds me more of a trawler arriving at port after a fishing campain.
The videos of the old proud U-Boot captains are much more indecent. Plus I think those who focus on the nazi carnage should have a look on what's happening everywhere nowaday.