Game end sequence ***Spoiler alert***

Ducimus · 04-21-10, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

you mean like a video game where players assume roles of members of the Reich's military and simulate the killing of American and British ships and people?

If you are willing to play a German WWII-U-boat commander and sink American and British ships, I don't think you should be offended by some end of game screen display.

WRONG. There's a BIG difference in playing a submarine simulation as a weapon of war in and of itself. And things like imagery that gloriy the 3rd reich.

There are several things wrong with the imagery in that picture.

1.) The emphasis on the flags in the background. Three of them for christ sakes. Having removed the swaztika means jack, we all know what it is.

2.) The reich eagle in the foreground. Having removed the swaztika from it's talons means jack. We all know what it is.

3.) The uboat is sandwiched between the two, being wrapped in the symbolism of an ideology.

4.) The context of the message smacks of negationism

5.) The composition, and theme of the overall picture is a carbon copy of Nazi propaganda posters. Google image search that and you'll see simularities

6.) The flowery rose petals shower, indicating heroic" and triumphant over the existing symbolism. Kinda like a roman parade you see in the movies.

IanC · 04-21-10, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

WRONG. There's a BIG difference in playing a submarine simulation as a weapon of war in and of itself. And things like imagery that gloriy the 3rd reich.

But isn't that image part of the subsim?

Ducimus · 04-21-10, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanC

But isn't that image part of the subsim?

Context. Context is everything. The context in that one end screen is exactly as i described it in my last post, and it's all bad.

IanC · 04-21-10, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Context. Context is everything. The context in that one end screen is exactly as i described it in my last post, and it's all bad.

Well yeah exactly. The context of that image is that you're a German U-boat kaleun who just finished a successful campaign for The Fatherland. It's part of the game.

Ducimus · 04-21-10, 07:58 PM

I love it when people are so wrapped up in Uboat romance they lose historical perspective through rose tinted glasses. Go ahead and lay glory and approbation to the 3rd reich if that's your thing, personally I just wanted a submarine simulation. No flowery imagery required for that.

IanC · 04-21-10, 08:30 PM

Sorry Ducimus, I always thought of myself as very sensitive to racism and antisemitism, but I'm not seeing what you are in that image. Its context is part of the sim, in my eyes.
I think I'll just leave it at that.

Faamecanic · 04-22-10, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I love it when people are so wrapped up in Uboat romance they lose historical perspective through rose tinted glasses. Go ahead and lay glory and approbation to the 3rd reich if that's your thing, personally I just wanted a submarine simulation. No flowery imagery required for that.

Duc...I understand where you are coming from. But lets not be overly sensitive and read something into this thats not there. I do agree there is no need for the swastika as it was a symbol of evil.

But those end photos conjure up the words in Adm. Doenitz book "ten years and twenty days" where he said the KM and all common soliders and sailors fought for thier country with pride". Adm. Nimitz then also backed Doenitz as he tesitfied for him at the Nuremburg War Trials and said "the uboat arm did nothing more then we did in the pacific".

Should we Americans feel shame in what we did to Japanesse merchantmen? Sailors who where just doing a job? No we shouldnt glorify it (and making a game about it borders on glorification)... But in fact playing all the SH seires actually made me reflect on ALL the sailors/submariners and the sacrafice they gave, and the pride they felt for what they were doing, no matter what flag they flew under.

NOTE I also agree with you that if someone is loosing "jollies" over the lack of a swastikz...then they need thier head examined.

Platapus · 04-22-10, 05:00 PM

[QUOTE=Faamecanic;1369095] I do agree there is no need for the swastika as it was a symbol of evil.

/QUOTE]

The swastika is not a symbol of evil. The swastika is an ancient symbol of good luck.

Among its other names, it is also called a sun wheel, fylfot, and in Germany the Hakenkreuz hooked cross.

The Nazi party did not originate the swastika, but adopted it as their symbol because it did have a long history of being a good luck or righteous symbol.

The fact that bad people used the swastika as a misplaced symbol, does not adversely reflect on the symbol, but on the people.

I do have to admit some surprise when I was in South Korea and I saw swastikas on some of the buildings.
Don't hate the symbol, hate the people who misused the symbol.

msxyz · 04-22-10, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

5.) The composition, and theme of the overall picture is a carbon copy of Nazi propaganda posters. Google image search that and you'll see simularities

6.) The flowery rose petals shower, indicating heroic" and triumphant over the existing symbolism. Kinda like a roman parade you see in the movies.

Sorry Dulcimus but I think point 5 and 6 are enough to Justify the use of such an image. Have you seen some propaganda images of uboot returng home? It's prefectly fit that your successful sub is depicted in such a way because that's what it would have been done in RL.

Most soldiers fight wars they did not choose to wage but, by playing the role of an uboot commander, you're doing the bidding of the German political class of the time, like it or not. That means the nazi party.

captainprid · 04-22-10, 03:36 AM

This argument is a little strange to say the least and I am struggling to fathom out the arguments.

In the first instance we are playing a simulator that represents basically the murder of innocents by a fascist regime but yet people are complaining that it glorifies the Nazi state, that is irony at its best.
It is important that games like this are framed in an historical context and that means including in the game why the U-Boats were there after all.

I would think National Socialism is abhorrent to pretty much everyone who plays and enjoys this game as well as the contributors of this forum but nevertheless, it was a fact. Freedom of expression and the fight to maintain that freedom was the reason that so many people died; to dismiss imagery and blatant facts as racsist and then try to ban them for that reason goes against everything people fought for.

If the lessons of history are forgotten then they will repeats themselves over and over again.

I understand the point that the last screen I posted blatantly glorifies Nazi Germany but it is set in an historical context, it is not promoting National Socialism at all. To a lesser extent, in SHIII the band playing at the quayside could be considered to be glorifying the boats march to war or much of the dialogue conducted with the flotilla chief in SHV could be considered the same.

The bigger issue here is the fact that Nazi symbolism is banned in many European countries, frankly that is their affair, in England it is not illegal say or display anything which would interfere with freedom of expression short of inciting racial hatred. Quite frankly the Nazi's and for that matter the communists were scum, most totalitarian regimes are. They murder and butcher innocents for their own twisted ideals but the reason we fight is so people can say what they please, so they can be free to choose.

I may not agree with what you say but I will defend with my life you're right to say it

Faamecanic · 04-22-10, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msxyz

Most soldiers fight wars they did not choose to wage but, by playing the role of an uboot commander, you're doing the bidding of the German political class of the time, like it or not. That means the nazi party.

Actual in Doenitz book...he took pride in the the fact that MOST of his Uboat commanders and sailors did NOT belong to or were forced to subscribe to the traditions of the Nazi party.

In fact after Hitlers attempted assassination at the Wolfs Lair, Hitler made the decree that ALL military must salute him with the Nazi salute or be considered for treason. Adm. Doenitz got into a rather heated discussion with Hitler and demanded that HIS KM be allowed to maintain the traditional salute (which looks like our American Military salute) because they earned it with their lives everytime they went out on a U-boat.

Bilge_Rat · 04-22-10, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faamecanic

Actual in Doenitz book...he took pride in the the fact that MOST of his Uboat commanders and sailors did NOT belong to or were forced to subscribe to the traditions of the Nazi party.

In fact after Hitlers attempted assassination at the Wolfs Lair, Hitler made the decree that ALL military must salute him with the Nazi salute or be considered for treason. Adm. Doenitz got into a rather heated discussion with Hitler and demanded that HIS KM be allowed to maintain the traditional salute (which looks like our American Military salute) because they earned it with their lives everytime they went out on a U-boat.

Dont underestimate Nazi influence in the Wehrmacht, Prien was an ardent nazi. Many officers got promoted because they were ardent Nazis.

One U-Boat captain, Oskar Kusch, was denounced by his first officer for anti-Nazi sentiments, sentenced to death and shot in 1944. Donitz did not lift a finger to help him which outraged many U-Boat captains.

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

Stalin carried out a purge of his armed forces in 1937-39 because he was worried about the loyalty of his men. Hitler never had to since he knew the majority of the officers agreed with the right-wing agenda of the nazi party.

It is very easy for Donitz after the war to say that he was never really a nazi, but actions speak louder than words.

captainprid · 04-22-10, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Dont underestimate Nazi influence in the Wehrmacht, Prien was an ardent nazi. Many officers got promoted because they were ardent Nazis.

One U-Boat captain, Oskar Kusch, was denounced by his first officer for anti-Nazi sentiments, sentenced to death and shot in 1944. Donitz did not lift a finger to help him which outraged many U-Boat captains.

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

Stalin carried out a purge of his armed forces in 1937-39 because he was worried about the loyalty of his men. Hitler never had to since he knew the majority of the officers agreed with the right-wing agenda of the nazi party.

It is very easy for Donitz after the war to say that he was never really a nazi, but actions speak louder than words.

Especially when the noose is half way over your head and there is the smell of a book deal

Faamecanic · 04-22-10, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Dont underestimate Nazi influence in the Wehrmacht, Prien was an ardent nazi. Many officers got promoted because they were ardent Nazis.

One U-Boat captain, Oskar Kusch, was denounced by his first officer for anti-Nazi sentiments, sentenced to death and shot in 1944. Donitz did not lift a finger to help him which outraged many U-Boat captains.

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

Stalin carried out a purge of his armed forces in 1937-39 because he was worried about the loyalty of his men. Hitler never had to since he knew the majority of the officers agreed with the right-wing agenda of the nazi party.

It is very easy for Donitz after the war to say that he was never really a nazi, but actions speak louder than words.

But Adm. Doenitz also went to Hitler to get one of his Jr. Officers out of the SS clink when this Jr. officer was caught in a romance with a Jewish Girl....

Sure like any big organiztion Snr. Officers and Staff/Flag officers had to tow the line to a certain degree. And I never said NONE of the KM were Nazis... a lot were. That was probably part of the downfall of Germany during WWII... a lot of the soliders and sailors were always looking over thier shoulders and not trusting thier Snr. officers or fellow officers due to some being Pro-Nazi and some just full of national pride (which SHV tries to capture with you not being neccessarily pro-Nazi, but your first officer is...).

Bilge_Rat · 04-22-10, 10:41 AM

It is well known Donitz was a Nazi and loyal to Hitler. He would not have received the promotions he did during the war if he was not.

That does not mean however that every Nazi/Nazi supporter supported every facet of nazi ideology, including the extermination of the Jewish people (although I seriously doubt every high ranking member of the Wehrmacht were as ignorant of the "Final Solution" during the war as they later claimed

).

Probably the best judgement on Donitz was rendered by his peers, the Allied admirals who fought against him, who were against his being tried as a war criminal since they were of the opinion that he had fought a tough, but clean naval war.

Back to the game, there has always been a dichotomy inherent in playing any type of realistic simulation. You can despise a particular regime, while still admiring their military prowess from a strictly professional viewpoint. The U.S. Army studied the German campaigns on the OstFront for years to get tips on how to beat the Soviets.

I despise both Hitler's and Stalin's regime, yet have no problem commanding German or Soviet pixeltruppen in CMBB, IL-2, SH5, et al. The purpose of a simulation for me is to recreate the what if factor, what would I do as commander in a particular situation, how could I do better than the real commander, who I command, whether Nazis, Soviets, Japanese, Americans, British, Canadians, Israelis, Syrians, Egyptians, Guerilla irregulars, et al. has little relevance, it is the intellectual challenge which is interesting.

04-22-10, 05:00 PM	#8
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,429 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	[QUOTE=Faamecanic;1369095] I do agree there is no need for the swastika as it was a symbol of evil. /QUOTE] The swastika is not a symbol of evil. The swastika is an ancient symbol of good luck. Among its other names, it is also called a sun wheel, fylfot, and in Germany the Hakenkreuz hooked cross. The Nazi party did not originate the swastika, but adopted it as their symbol because it did have a long history of being a good luck or righteous symbol. The fact that bad people used the swastika as a misplaced symbol, does not adversely reflect on the symbol, but on the people. I do have to admit some surprise when I was in South Korea and I saw swastikas on some of the buildings. Don't hate the symbol, hate the people who misused the symbol. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

04-22-10, 03:36 AM	#10
captainprid Watch Officer Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blackpool, England Posts: 347 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	This argument is a little strange to say the least and I am struggling to fathom out the arguments. In the first instance we are playing a simulator that represents basically the murder of innocents by a fascist regime but yet people are complaining that it glorifies the Nazi state, that is irony at its best. It is important that games like this are framed in an historical context and that means including in the game why the U-Boats were there after all. I would think National Socialism is abhorrent to pretty much everyone who plays and enjoys this game as well as the contributors of this forum but nevertheless, it was a fact. Freedom of expression and the fight to maintain that freedom was the reason that so many people died; to dismiss imagery and blatant facts as racsist and then try to ban them for that reason goes against everything people fought for. If the lessons of history are forgotten then they will repeats themselves over and over again. I understand the point that the last screen I posted blatantly glorifies Nazi Germany but it is set in an historical context, it is not promoting National Socialism at all. To a lesser extent, in SHIII the band playing at the quayside could be considered to be glorifying the boats march to war or much of the dialogue conducted with the flotilla chief in SHV could be considered the same. The bigger issue here is the fact that Nazi symbolism is banned in many European countries, frankly that is their affair, in England it is not illegal say or display anything which would interfere with freedom of expression short of inciting racial hatred. Quite frankly the Nazi's and for that matter the communists were scum, most totalitarian regimes are. They murder and butcher innocents for their own twisted ideals but the reason we fight is so people can say what they please, so they can be free to choose. I may not agree with what you say but I will defend with my life you're right to say it __________________ Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;

04-22-10, 10:41 AM	#15
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,856 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	It is well known Donitz was a Nazi and loyal to Hitler. He would not have received the promotions he did during the war if he was not. That does not mean however that every Nazi/Nazi supporter supported every facet of nazi ideology, including the extermination of the Jewish people (although I seriously doubt every high ranking member of the Wehrmacht were as ignorant of the "Final Solution" during the war as they later claimed ). Probably the best judgement on Donitz was rendered by his peers, the Allied admirals who fought against him, who were against his being tried as a war criminal since they were of the opinion that he had fought a tough, but clean naval war. Back to the game, there has always been a dichotomy inherent in playing any type of realistic simulation. You can despise a particular regime, while still admiring their military prowess from a strictly professional viewpoint. The U.S. Army studied the German campaigns on the OstFront for years to get tips on how to beat the Soviets. I despise both Hitler's and Stalin's regime, yet have no problem commanding German or Soviet pixeltruppen in CMBB, IL-2, SH5, et al. The purpose of a simulation for me is to recreate the what if factor, what would I do as commander in a particular situation, how could I do better than the real commander, who I command, whether Nazis, Soviets, Japanese, Americans, British, Canadians, Israelis, Syrians, Egyptians, Guerilla irregulars, et al. has little relevance, it is the intellectual challenge which is interesting. __________________

04-21-10, 07:58 PM	#5
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I love it when people are so wrapped up in Uboat romance they lose historical perspective through rose tinted glasses. Go ahead and lay glory and approbation to the 3rd reich if that's your thing, personally I just wanted a submarine simulation. No flowery imagery required for that.

04-21-10, 08:30 PM	#6
IanC Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Running silent and deep Posts: 902 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Sorry Ducimus, I always thought of myself as very sensitive to racism and antisemitism, but I'm not seeing what you are in that image. Its context is part of the sim, in my eyes. I think I'll just leave it at that.