What were they thinking

[bigboywooly]

I doubt many French will concur they were part of the Axis as France WAS neutral after capitulation
Despite being occupied
Yes the game has always had FreeFrench as was the case in RL

The issue with making Norway etc part of the axis is that it wasnt
Occupied yes
Allied no
Aside from those who joined GE units the rest of the country was far from happy about being occupied and showed it
Norway had a huge WW2 merc fleet which sailed with the allies

As the game stands now you will never get to see a Polish,Norwegian or Danish ship sailing in any convoy
And while its possible to create a FreeNorway still means a rewrite

I seem to recall a similar convo in the SH3 forums
Will try to find that but IIRC most of the above named nations would deffo NOT consider themselves part of the axis

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

I seem to recall a similar convo in the SH3 forums
Will try to find that but IIRC most of the above named nations would deffo NOT consider themselves part of the axis

Hi!

There were several. Here is one of them: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...ccupied+greece.

IIRC Beery ran into a wall of flak when he included Greece as an "Axis" country in RUb and reverted them back to members of the Allies.

Pablo

[Jan Kyster]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

As the game stands now you will never get to see a Polish,Norwegian or Danish ship sailing in any convoy...

Those ships (typical) sailed under the british flag. Some danish ships went to the states and sailed under the Star Sprangled Banner...

If wanted, I can compile a complete list of which danish ships went under which foreign flags in WW2.
But be prepared for some waiting time then - there were hundreds...

You will not find a WW2 convoy with ships flying danish or norwegian flags

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by Jan Kyster

Those ships (typical) sailed under the british flag. Some danish ships went to the states and sailed under the Star Sprangled Banner...

If wanted, I can compile a complete list of which danish ships went under which foreign flags in WW2.
But be prepared for some waiting time then - there were hundreds...

You will not find a WW2 convoy with ships flying danish or norwegian flags

Interesting

True the Danish fleet was requesitioned on the day of invasion and placed under British flag
Not so Norways fleet - a large part already chartered to the British in Sept 39 to bring oil etc into GB
AFAIK Nortraship - the organisation set up in London to run Norways huge fleet after the invasion and the largest shipping company in the world - had control of the ships
They were certainly hired by the MOWT but sailed under Norwegian flags

At the outbreak of the war, Norway had the fourth largest merchant fleet in the world (after the UK, USA and Japan). In late April 1940 the Allies demanded that the fleet (most of it outside Norwegian waters and so not controlled by Germany) be transferred to Allied flag. The Norwegian government, still in Norway, resisted this, but took over the right to manage and use all vessels so that they could be used to secure supplies and advance the war operations of Norway and the Allied powers (40% of the fleet was sailing for the allies already, under an agreement from September 1939). Norwegian vessels sailed mostly in trans-Atlantic convoys during the war, under Norwegian flag. Most of the Norwegian merchant fleet was under the control of the government based in London. Those ships remaining in Norway probably just sailed in coastal waters. A ship under Norwegian flag anywhere else in the world would be considered an Allied ship. If it hadn't, using false colours would not succeed.

http://www.allstates-flag.com//fotw/flags/no-ww2.html

Besides
Having Norway as Axis means you cannot have any Norwegian navy ships on the allied side
Such as the 5 Town class or 2 S class DDs
Not to mention the 2 U class submarines HNoMS Ula and HNoMS Uredd which are actually in the game in Norways roster and so your ally

[Bilge_Rat]

bigboywooly, I am not sure if I understand your point. The start and end dates match up with history. Is'nt the whole point of listing a country as AXIS, NEUTRAL or ALLIED to denote if the port is friendly, neutral or enemy in the game?

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

bigboywooly, I am not sure if I understand your point. The start and end dates match up with history. Is'nt the whole point of listing a country as AXIS, NEUTRAL or ALLIED to denote if the port is friendly, neutral or enemy in the game?

Well yes and no
Denotes not just the port but all the shipping too

Ports are easily fixed using the common mis
I think was only changed this way - previous SH titles those countries were Allied or neutral - because the HistoricalBases.mis doesnt work as intended

From the Common.mis - has all bases and nodes

[Unit 65]
Name=Lorient
Class=NavalBase
Type=407
Origin=France
LayerOperation=0
Side=0 < has France neutral thoughout war
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
Doctrine=0
CfgDate=19390901
MainEquipment=1
SecondaryEquipment=1
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
DockedShip=false
IsEscort=false
GameEntryDate=19380101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0

From the ** Historical Bases mis - all project folders have one of these with the name replacing the **

[Unit 3]
Name=Lorient
Class=NavalBase
Type=407
Origin=German
LayerOperation=0
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
Doctrine=0
CfgDate=19400601
MainEquipment=1
SecondaryEquipment=1
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
DockedShip=false
IsEscort=false
GameEntryDate=19400606 < At this date this entry is supposed to overide the one above
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0

But by changing France to neutral in defside that French bases should still show blue under German occupation but as from the pic below they dont



So I guess the simple way was to make those countries part of the Axis

But as posted above Norway for instance - as an Axis country ingame - receives 2 U class subs from Britain AFTER occupation

[Unit 1]
Name=HMS Uredd
DOC=19411212
DOD=19430224

[Unit 2]
Name=HNoMS Ula
DOC=19430403
DOD=1965120

So it doesnt add up

Anyone down the line adding in Norwegian naval units ingame and adding them in historical context such as HNoMS Bath sunk while escorting convoy OG-71 as part of the 5th Escort Group will find an axis DD amongst the escorts

[loerelau]

I was suprised to see that Amsterdam/Rotterdam were Allied ports in October/November '40 (Don't know exactly how far I am in campaign.).

Didn't check the port, but they are red on the map.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

So it doesnt add up

Anyone down the line adding in Norwegian naval units ingame and adding them in historical context such as HNoMS Bath sunk while escorting convoy OG-71 as part of the 5th Escort Group will find an axis DD amongst the escorts.

I see your point, there were several Free French or Norwegian crewed corvettes on the North Atlantic Convoy run. I guess they would all appear as "British" now.

[mookiemookie]

There's no way to add them to a new allied country's roster and call them Free Norwegian? Or is adding countries not possible?

[Jan Kyster]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Norwegian vessels sailed mostly in trans-Atlantic convoys during the war, under Norwegian flag...Those ships remaining in Norway probably just sailed in coastal waters. A ship under Norwegian flag anywhere else in the world would be considered an Allied ship. If it hadn't, using false colours would not succeed.
http://www.allstates-flag.com//fotw/flags/no-ww2.html

That doesn't make sense

The german Kaleun raided convoys in the Atlantic, now he's going home to "his" base in Bergen.
At which point in the North Sea does he decide the ships flying norwegian flags now are "his own"?

Or the bristish subcommander coming back from patrolling norwegian waters - where does he decide the ships are no longer "hostile"?

Danish ships in home waters were flying danish flags and had very large danish flags painted on the hull as agreed with the occupying forces.
That should keep the german navy from attacking them (which they in many cases didn't respect, lots were sunk despite this agreement) and the Kaleun coming from Flensburg/Kiel wouldn't sink these on his way up through the danish waters - they were on his side.
But when he came into the Atlantic/close to England, suddenly danish ships would turn into prey?

After the occupation of Denmark and Norway, everything belonged to the Germans and should be marked as Axis. Not that we liked it, but nobody asked...

Until I see a photo of a convoy with norwegian/danish flags in it, I'll claim the AllStates-Flags.com is not correct.

[ddrgn]

Originally Posted by Jan Kyster

That doesn't make sense

The german Kaleun raided convoys in the Atlantic, now he's going home to "his" base in Bergen.
At which point in the North Sea does he decide the ships flying norwegian flags now are "his own"?

Or the bristish subcommander coming back from patrolling norwegian waters - where does he decide the ships are no longer "hostile"?

Danish ships in home waters were flying danish flags and had very large danish flags painted on the hull as agreed with the occupying forces.
That should keep the german navy from attacking them (which they in many cases didn't respect, lots were sunk despite this agreement) and the Kaleun coming from Flensburg/Kiel wouldn't sink these on his way up through the danish waters - they were on his side.
But when he came into the Atlantic/close to England, suddenly danish ships would turn into prey?

After the occupation of Denmark and Norway, everything belonged to the Germans and should be marked as Axis. Not that we liked it, but nobody asked...

Until I see a photo of a convoy with norwegian/danish flags in it, I'll claim the AllStates-Flags.com is not correct.

Norwegian boats were sunk when they we're sailing with allied convoys. Go see the tonnage wolfpacks put up and note the countries, they sank plenty of Norwegian boats.

They sank 315 Norwegian ships in fact.

And they certainly were being sunk in 1943.

http://www.uboat.net/ops/convoys/con...?convoy=HX-229

Note: even Dutch freighters were sunk during this attack and counted as enemy tonnage.