Arizona bill to outlaw illegal immigrants...

SteamWake · 04-14-10, 11:57 AM

Yes you read that right... it will now be illegal to be illegal

Quote:

PHOENIX -- The Arizona House on Tuesday approved a bill to crack down on illegal immigration by making it against state law to be in Arizona without legal immigration documents.

What on earth

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...ors-signature/

Buddahaid · 04-14-10, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Yes you read that right... it will now be illegal to be illegal

What on earth

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...ors-signature/

Oooh, double plus illegal.

Torvald Von Mansee · 04-14-10, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Oooh, double plus illegal.

Pretty much. I'm not sure what it will really do to stop them, though.

Really, the only way to do it is w/a Berlin Wall type fortification the length of the border, but no one has the political balls to do that. And god knows how much the prices for certain things would rise if illegals disappeared from the work force. Well, at least they're not a certain other demographic group which tends to be far more violent when faced w/value systems different from their own.

SteamWake · 04-14-10, 12:43 PM

Actually the bill frees the hands of law enforcement to enforce the law.

They can now 'arrest' illegals without fear of reprimand or reprisal.

It was just strangly worded.

Torvald Von Mansee · 04-14-10, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Actually the bill frees the hands of law enforcement to enforce the law.

They can now 'arrest' illegals without fear of reprimand or reprisal.

It was just strangly worded.

It would suck to be a Hispanic born in the U.S., though. I'm sure in Maricopa county you get hassled all the time by law enforcement. Now you'd get hassled even more.

SteamWake · 04-14-10, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torvald Von Mansee

It would suck to be a Hispanic born in the U.S., though. I'm sure in Maricopa county you get hassled all the time by law enforcement. Now you'd get hassled even more.

Yes that is a definate downside though I'd be willing to bet that law enforcement already know whom alot of the illegals are already but couldent do anything.

What if your a US born Latino with no green card that could get ugly.

Buddahaid · 04-14-10, 01:20 PM

No we aren't profiling hispanics.....

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MNOS1CU8FG.DTL

"It requires law enforcement officers who have a "reasonable suspicion" that someone is an illegal immigrant to determine that person's immigration status "when practicable." A provision in the bill states that race or ethnicity cannot be the sole grounds for asking about immigration status, but civil rights groups say authorities are not barred from using them along with other factors that raise suspicions."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz0l6FwrD3m

tater · 04-14-10, 01:22 PM

I don't think they will be randomly pulling over hispanics.

The problem is that in the past the police have not been allowed to even ask or determine the status of people already in custody or questioned. So while it's illegal to come into the US without doing the proper footwork, since only limited (overworked) agencies are allowed in general to deal with the issue, nothing happens.

It;s like healthcare laws saying that they don't cover illegals. That's great, but since no one is allowed to ask their status in the first place, it's meaningless. There was a patient seeking care who was known to be an illegal. He had medicaid some how, too. I looked up how to report him for medicaid fraud. LOL.

Search medicaid fraud sometime, and look at the state wesites on how to report it. Report a DOCTOR for medicaid fraud? Hell, they'll probably come to your house to help you fill out the form. Patient fraud? Apparently there is none, there is no mechanism in place to report it.

GoldenRivet · 04-14-10, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Actually the bill frees the hands of law enforcement to enforce the law.

correct.

this used to be the job of the United States Border Patrol.

One of the most useless organizations in United States history.

Now, any cop can make a proper arrest.

so... then what

Put them into a prison and feed and clothe them at our expense?

send them back so they can just hop the border again in three days?

whats the solution.

Personally im in support of legislature that gives authorities the right to...

shut down your business for hiring illegals.

sieze your property for renting apartments or duplexes etc to illegals.

and fining you or giving you prison time for any business dealings you have with illegals.

UnderseaLcpl · 04-14-10, 02:59 PM

tater brings up a good point. Laws against illegal immigration rarely work out...unless you happen to be from somewhere other than a Hispanic nation that is close to or borders the US. Just ask my Ukranian stepmother who, after 7 years, is still not a US citizen because the paperwork keeps getting held up.

The volume of illegal immmigration stems from two causes: (1) accessibility, and (2) motivation. Many believe that the first cause is the one we should seek to address, either by building a wall or enforcing stricter immigration laws or what have you, but the solution lies in eliminating the second cause, or better yet, using it to our advantage.

Illegal immigrants flock to this nation because of the poverty in their own nations. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Lift the lamp beside the Golden Door, America! We owe our prosperity to our ancestors who immigrated to the land of opportunity and made the most of that opportunity. What right have we to deny others the same chance? If anything, I think we should relax restrictions on immigration.

What we should not do, however, is give them a free ride. That's just asking for abuse. No entitlements, no free healthcare, no education programs, nothing unless you follow the proper guidelines to apply for citizenship. In short, you must provide proof of citizenship to qualify for any kind of government service. The only exception I would make to that rule is in the case of police and fire services, but I would not allow immigrants to pursue legal action.

By this method, illegal immigration would be seriously curtailed in no time at all, partially because immigration would be easier, and partially because there's less incentive. More importantly, it would drastically reduce the impact that illegal immigration has on the US economy.

That leaves us with only one more problem to overcome: protectionism. That's the real issue with illegal, or even legal immigration in most cases. People don't like the idea of anybody taking their jobs, and they'll come up with all kinds of creative ways to keep new labor out, especially if it's cheaper.

The only way to deal with that is to make the immigration laws as fair as possible (in the sense of opportunity, not outcome), and then set them in legislative stone so that they cannot be easily changed, i.e., 90% majority required to amend the law. That will force people to be competitive rather than rely on state force to block others out, and such policy is the basis for a truly equal society.

Indeed, the same kind of policy should apply to every aspect of our law. Most see our system of law and government as a way to keep things fair, but in fact the opposite is true - it's just a tool for the powerful to use to secure their positions through force. Law is supposed to mean the same thing for everyone in this nation, and those who wish to join us, but it rarely does.

When I look at the debate over illegal immigration, especially in Washington, all I see is a smokescreen being thrown up by a gaggle of self-interested groups with a seperate agenda. Dems are lenient on immigration because they want the new votes, and they're willing to buy them with taxpayer money. Republicans are draconian in their measures against immingartion because they want to protect the votes they already have, and they're willing to buy them with taxpayer money.

It's a battle between numerous, politically apathetic, and poor Democratic supporters and a smaller but very politically active and wealthy Republican supporters. Outside, shrewd investors and businessmen throw money at both parties and then laugh all the way to the bank.

As always, the solution is to take away the tool by which the powerful exploit the rest of us: force, manifested in government. Many great men throughout American history have voiced this sentiment, but they are rarely recalled, save in oft-forgotten history lectures, and even then they are rarely lauded for their foresight.

George Washington warned: "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

Thomas Jefferson warned that the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain.

My personal favorite is not from an American at all, though. Rather, it is from the Savoyard philosopher Joseph de Maistre, and, ironically enough, he was an authoritarian, but he hit the nail right on the head: "Every nation has the government it deserves". I realize I'm taking it out of his context, but the words are true as anything. Whether the issue is illegal immigration or trade deficit or public debt or the recession or what have you, we are in this place because we allowed the few power over the many. We have the government we deserve. It is a monument to all our sins.

GoldenRivet · 04-14-10, 03:01 PM

excellent points.

Onkel Neal · 04-14-10, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torvald Von Mansee

Pretty much. I'm not sure what it will really do to stop them, though.

Really, the only way to do it is w/a Berlin Wall type fortification the length of the border, but no one has the political balls to do that. And god knows how much the prices for certain things would rise if illegals disappeared from the work force. Well, at least they're not a certain other demographic group which tends to be far more violent when faced w/value systems different from their own.

No, no, no, there is a far better way, and one that would cost nothing.

Simply legislate huge fines and criminal penalties for anyone who hires an illegal, and post bounties for informants to alert INS when they know of a company who has illegals working for them. And this gets around the terrible, terrible issue of harrassing the poor Hispanics, legal or otherwise.

Penalty for employing an illegal alien? $50,000 per alien and 10 years in the federal penitentiary. Business is closed and assets comfiscated.

Bounty for an arrest on an employer who hires illegals: $5000.

Problem solved.

If you are here legally, welcome my friend! Be our guest.

GoldenRivet · 04-14-10, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

No, no, no, there is a far better way, and one that would cost nothing.

Simply legislate huge fines and criminal penalties for anyone who hires an illegal, and post bounties for informants to alert INS when they know of a company who has illegals working for them.

Penalty for employing an illegal alien? $50,000 per alien and 10 years in the federal penitentiary. Business is closed and assets comfiscated.

Bounty for an arrest on an employer who hires illegals: $5000.

Problem solved.

If you are here legally, welcome my friend! Be our guest.

absolutely.

people would be reporting such companies in droves i should think

tater · 04-14-10, 03:12 PM

I'd like to add that while I am absolutely in favor of criminalizing the hiring of illegals, deporting illegals here now as they are discovered, and even locking down the border by any means necessary, I'd be totally fine with grossly increasing the number of immigrants let in legally.

If 1 million a year sneak in, let 800,000 in legally—or more, doesn't matter to me. I don't care that they come, I welcome them. What POs me is that they don't follow the rules and come in legally, jumping through all required hoops and paperwork. Arturo is welcome to come and work hard, but I don't want another Mr. Atta, please.

After a bunch of travel in the 3d world over the years, I long ago came up with my own, personal definition of "civilization."

Civilization exists in societies that spontaneously form lines.

If you stand in lines and don't frequently hear, "I'm sorry, were you ahead of me?" or "No, she was in front of me, take care of her first, thank you." you're someplace uncivilized.

Sneaking in is like cutting a line.

Ducimus · 04-14-10, 03:12 PM

Too little, too late IMO. one reason california is bankrupt is because of illegal immigration. I recall seeing some statistic somewhere, that back in 92, illegals cost california 10 million annually. If im remember that correctly, i shudder to think what it is now.

04-14-10, 12:43 PM	#4
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Actually the bill frees the hands of law enforcement to enforce the law. They can now 'arrest' illegals without fear of reprimand or reprisal. It was just strangly worded. __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

04-14-10, 01:20 PM	#7
Buddahaid Shark above Space Chicken Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 9,320 Downloads: 162 Uploads: 0	No we aren't profiling hispanics..... http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MNOS1CU8FG.DTL "It requires law enforcement officers who have a "reasonable suspicion" that someone is an illegal immigrant to determine that person's immigration status "when practicable." A provision in the bill states that race or ethnicity cannot be the sole grounds for asking about immigration status, but civil rights groups say authorities are not barred from using them along with other factors that raise suspicions." Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz0l6FwrD3m __________________ "However vast the darkness, we must provide our own light." Stanley Kubrick "Tomorrow belongs to those who can hear it coming." David Bowie

04-14-10, 02:59 PM	#10
UnderseaLcpl Silent Hunter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Storming the beaches! Posts: 4,254 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	tater brings up a good point. Laws against illegal immigration rarely work out...unless you happen to be from somewhere other than a Hispanic nation that is close to or borders the US. Just ask my Ukranian stepmother who, after 7 years, is still not a US citizen because the paperwork keeps getting held up. The volume of illegal immmigration stems from two causes: (1) accessibility, and (2) motivation. Many believe that the first cause is the one we should seek to address, either by building a wall or enforcing stricter immigration laws or what have you, but the solution lies in eliminating the second cause, or better yet, using it to our advantage. Illegal immigrants flock to this nation because of the poverty in their own nations. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Lift the lamp beside the Golden Door, America! We owe our prosperity to our ancestors who immigrated to the land of opportunity and made the most of that opportunity. What right have we to deny others the same chance? If anything, I think we should relax restrictions on immigration. What we should not do, however, is give them a free ride. That's just asking for abuse. No entitlements, no free healthcare, no education programs, nothing unless you follow the proper guidelines to apply for citizenship. In short, you must provide proof of citizenship to qualify for any kind of government service. The only exception I would make to that rule is in the case of police and fire services, but I would not allow immigrants to pursue legal action. By this method, illegal immigration would be seriously curtailed in no time at all, partially because immigration would be easier, and partially because there's less incentive. More importantly, it would drastically reduce the impact that illegal immigration has on the US economy. That leaves us with only one more problem to overcome: protectionism. That's the real issue with illegal, or even legal immigration in most cases. People don't like the idea of anybody taking their jobs, and they'll come up with all kinds of creative ways to keep new labor out, especially if it's cheaper. The only way to deal with that is to make the immigration laws as fair as possible (in the sense of opportunity, not outcome), and then set them in legislative stone so that they cannot be easily changed, i.e., 90% majority required to amend the law. That will force people to be competitive rather than rely on state force to block others out, and such policy is the basis for a truly equal society. Indeed, the same kind of policy should apply to every aspect of our law. Most see our system of law and government as a way to keep things fair, but in fact the opposite is true - it's just a tool for the powerful to use to secure their positions through force. Law is supposed to mean the same thing for everyone in this nation, and those who wish to join us, but it rarely does. When I look at the debate over illegal immigration, especially in Washington, all I see is a smokescreen being thrown up by a gaggle of self-interested groups with a seperate agenda. Dems are lenient on immigration because they want the new votes, and they're willing to buy them with taxpayer money. Republicans are draconian in their measures against immingartion because they want to protect the votes they already have, and they're willing to buy them with taxpayer money. It's a battle between numerous, politically apathetic, and poor Democratic supporters and a smaller but very politically active and wealthy Republican supporters. Outside, shrewd investors and businessmen throw money at both parties and then laugh all the way to the bank. As always, the solution is to take away the tool by which the powerful exploit the rest of us: force, manifested in government. Many great men throughout American history have voiced this sentiment, but they are rarely recalled, save in oft-forgotten history lectures, and even then they are rarely lauded for their foresight. George Washington warned: "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." Thomas Jefferson warned that the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain. My personal favorite is not from an American at all, though. Rather, it is from the Savoyard philosopher Joseph de Maistre, and, ironically enough, he was an authoritarian, but he hit the nail right on the head: "Every nation has the government it deserves". I realize I'm taking it out of his context, but the words are true as anything. Whether the issue is illegal immigration or trade deficit or public debt or the recession or what have you, we are in this place because we allowed the few power over the many. We have the government we deserve. It is a monument to all our sins. __________________ I stole this sig from Task Force

04-14-10, 03:01 PM	#11
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	excellent points. __________________

04-14-10, 01:22 PM	#8
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I don't think they will be randomly pulling over hispanics. The problem is that in the past the police have not been allowed to even ask or determine the status of people already in custody or questioned. So while it's illegal to come into the US without doing the proper footwork, since only limited (overworked) agencies are allowed in general to deal with the issue, nothing happens. It;s like healthcare laws saying that they don't cover illegals. That's great, but since no one is allowed to ask their status in the first place, it's meaningless. There was a patient seeking care who was known to be an illegal. He had medicaid some how, too. I looked up how to report him for medicaid fraud. LOL. Search medicaid fraud sometime, and look at the state wesites on how to report it. Report a DOCTOR for medicaid fraud? Hell, they'll probably come to your house to help you fill out the form. Patient fraud? Apparently there is none, there is no mechanism in place to report it.

04-14-10, 03:12 PM	#14
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I'd like to add that while I am absolutely in favor of criminalizing the hiring of illegals, deporting illegals here now as they are discovered, and even locking down the border by any means necessary, I'd be totally fine with grossly increasing the number of immigrants let in legally. If 1 million a year sneak in, let 800,000 in legally—or more, doesn't matter to me. I don't care that they come, I welcome them. What POs me is that they don't follow the rules and come in legally, jumping through all required hoops and paperwork. Arturo is welcome to come and work hard, but I don't want another Mr. Atta, please. After a bunch of travel in the 3d world over the years, I long ago came up with my own, personal definition of "civilization." Civilization exists in societies that spontaneously form lines. If you stand in lines and don't frequently hear, "I'm sorry, were you ahead of me?" or "No, she was in front of me, take care of her first, thank you." you're someplace uncivilized. Sneaking in is like cutting a line.

04-14-10, 03:12 PM	#15
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Too little, too late IMO. one reason california is bankrupt is because of illegal immigration. I recall seeing some statistic somewhere, that back in 92, illegals cost california 10 million annually. If im remember that correctly, i shudder to think what it is now.