Things that bother me about "Iron Coffins" - Page 5

flag4 · 04-10-10, 11:07 AM

...where does Herbert A Werner claim all he wrote is true?

It's ridiculously high standing. Iron COffins is often thought of as a crowning masterpiece in the genre of submarine literature, the definitive account of life on a German U-boat, and a 100% factual account.

"...is often thought of..." by who - Werner?

did Werner ever claim it was all true. and if so is this information written down somewhere for us to see for ourseleves.

dont forget, Publishers will go to extremes to sell a title - Werner may not have had editorial control or a final say. as of yet, in this discussion, we do not know what Werner himself thinks or claims.

Rumour and accusation are not a ground base for a balanced discussion. i am yet to be convinced by Subnuts well written/structured summary: what we need is evidence for a conclusion.

mcarlsonus · 04-10-10, 11:35 AM

You know, there is a culture in military circles - and I'm sure it was around before, during, and after WW2 - that traditionally OVER-inflates the capabilities and successes of ones enemies! If you fought and won against, "that guy," one can rest assured the referred to, "guy" was the toughest, meanest, most skilled person who ever walked the Earth! Enhancing someone's track record to promote sales isn't unusual.

tater · 04-10-10, 11:44 AM

I just read the introduction on books.google.com.

The author absolutely claims it is true. He says the book tells of his personal experiences and exists to "set the record straight." He goes on to state it was checked vs his notes, and other sources though still mostly from memory, and also claims the dates and hours are usually accurate "to the minute."

You cannot argue it was written and presented as history. Any factual errors that are clearly made up damn the book as a fraud. Minor differences with reality as would be expected in a personal account are fine, no recollection is perfect. But it crosses the line when things are made up.

OP should write a review for Amazon spelling out the errors so there is at least one review there that isn't glowing.

Armistead · 04-10-10, 12:17 PM

Maybe the facts clear up the real reason he survived the war. I've read it several times and who can not question the super skills he claims. I mean really he went through every possible situation possible and lived. I didn't have to check the facts to realize he added much fiction to the book.

I also agree with the post on Gene and the Barb, another ego maniac.

IanC · 04-10-10, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I also agree with the post on Gene and the Barb, another ego maniac.

Hmm ego maniac... That gets me thinking. How do any of us know the state of mind Werner was in when he wrote his book? Maybe the guy suffered a mental break down after the war. I'm guessing it's not that hard to 'lose it' if you're a sensitive person who saw all your friends die, and witnessed the other horrors of war.
How do we know what he wrote was, for him, outright lies? Don't be so quick to judge, try to imagine walking a mile in those shoes.

Nisgeis · 04-10-10, 12:54 PM

My book also has an introduction written by the author that says:

"This book, which tells of my personal experiences in the German U-Boat force in World War II fulfills an obligation of long standing. Since the end of that destructive war, the role of the U-boat Force has at times been distorted and underestimated, even by military historians who should have known better. Because I was one of the few U-boat commanders who fought through most of the warand who managed to survive, I felt it was my duty to my fallen comrades to set the record straight."

Moeceefus · 04-10-10, 01:17 PM

stephen colbert's word "truthiness" comes to mind

mcarlsonus · 04-10-10, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I also agree with the post on Gene and the Barb, another ego maniac.

Thank YOU - and welcome to the Island of Banished Subsim Posters!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moeceefus

stephen colbert's word "truthiness" comes to mind

As in, "Take that, dire bunny! Fear my sword of truthiness!" ?

Subnuts · 04-10-10, 02:44 PM

I know some people are easy to forgive Werner since he was probably suffering from enormous amounts of emotional stress after the war. Fine.

What bothers me is Werner insists that this book is the truth, is accurate down to minute, wants to set the record straight, thinks he's doing us all a favor by telling the "real story," and so on and so forth. Fuchida pulled the same shtick with Midway: The Battle That Doomed Japan and almost no one in the West bothered to question the validity of his statements for nearly five decades. He was there...wasn't that good enough? Now we have tripe like Scorpion Down and All Hands Down being taken as the "gospel truth" about the loss of the Scorpion Down by folks who don't understand the mechanics of modern submarines, Cold War politics, or the effect of a torpedo impact on a submarine's pressure hull. Sure, these books might be more interesting then the drier, non-conspiratorial takes on the subject, but they're still bull****!

Perhaps I'm just a nitpicky amateur naval historian, but it pisses me off when blatantly fabricated or inaccurate books on naval matters get published and people accept them unconditionally because they're "well written" or "feel truthful." I might be a skeptical bastard, but I think I've been given plenty of ammunition over the years.

tater · 04-10-10, 04:13 PM

Which one is flag4, and which is ianc?

sergei · 04-10-10, 04:20 PM

You just made me spill my beer

IanC · 04-10-10, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Which one is flag4, and which is ianc?

tater instead of making a fool of yourself by posting a silly picture, maybe you can intelligently answer my post #65 instead?

tater · 04-10-10, 07:20 PM

Post #65 is silly.

The guy fabricates war stories, publishes them as history, then your reaction is that the most plausible rationale is mental illness?

The most plausible explanation is that he wanted to make money, and if it was self-serving into the bargain, so much the better.

That explains it without the fantasy of mental illness. It's a fabrication, and he did it for his own reasons. Doesn't change that it is a fabrication, and bad history.

tater

PS---making someone spill his beer or spit coffee through his nose onto a keyboard is like firing a torpedo blind at max range and taking out a battleship. Worth it

IanC · 04-10-10, 07:23 PM

That's what I thought about you. Thanks for confirming.

mcarlsonus · 04-10-10, 07:37 PM

SO, anyway...

I was watching an occasionally-funny movie The Onion News. About an hour in, there is a faux roundtable discussion regarding the movie's treatment and portrayal of stereotypical non-WASP's. Among the participants was Gedde Watanabe, who played, "Long Duc Dong" in Sixteen Candles, among other things. He was asked how he felt about the way Asians were being portrayed in the movie and responded, "Me no rikey!" I was reminded of Eugene Fluckey's portrayal of the two POW's he had on his boat during the time Thunder Below took place. Similar conversation between Our Hero and POW's was routine. He named one of them, "Kamikaze." Can't remember the other, but only one was actually Japanese. Of course, under Fluckey's tutelage, both, "saw the light" and changed loyalties with great rapidity. One of 'em was actually disappointed he wasn't allowed to go ashore and help out on the train mining mission!

In the picture above, #2 from the left is me. Someone was holding up a donut just offscreen when the picture was taken...

04-10-10, 11:07 AM	#61
flag4 Watch Officer Join Date: May 2007 Location: as far away as possible Posts: 1,625 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 0	...where does Herbert A Werner claim all he wrote is true? It's ridiculously high standing. Iron COffins is often thought of as a crowning masterpiece in the genre of submarine literature, the definitive account of life on a German U-boat, and a 100% factual account. "...is often thought of..." by who - Werner? did Werner ever claim it was all true. and if so is this information written down somewhere for us to see for ourseleves. dont forget, Publishers will go to extremes to sell a title - Werner may not have had editorial control or a final say. as of yet, in this discussion, we do not know what Werner himself thinks or claims. Rumour and accusation are not a ground base for a balanced discussion. i am yet to be convinced by Subnuts well written/structured summary: what we need is evidence for a conclusion. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ' We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different.' Kurt Vonnegut

04-10-10, 12:54 PM	#66
Nisgeis Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,909 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 11	My book also has an introduction written by the author that says: "This book, which tells of my personal experiences in the German U-Boat force in World War II fulfills an obligation of long standing. Since the end of that destructive war, the role of the U-boat Force has at times been distorted and underestimated, even by military historians who should have known better. Because I was one of the few U-boat commanders who fought through most of the warand who managed to survive, I felt it was my duty to my fallen comrades to set the record straight." __________________ -------------------------------- This space left intentionally blank.

04-10-10, 02:44 PM	#69
Subnuts The Old Man Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 1,658 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	I know some people are easy to forgive Werner since he was probably suffering from enormous amounts of emotional stress after the war. Fine. What bothers me is Werner insists that this book is the truth, is accurate down to minute, wants to set the record straight, thinks he's doing us all a favor by telling the "real story," and so on and so forth. Fuchida pulled the same shtick with Midway: The Battle That Doomed Japan and almost no one in the West bothered to question the validity of his statements for nearly five decades. He was there...wasn't that good enough? Now we have tripe like Scorpion Down and All Hands Down being taken as the "gospel truth" about the loss of the Scorpion Down by folks who don't understand the mechanics of modern submarines, Cold War politics, or the effect of a torpedo impact on a submarine's pressure hull. Sure, these books might be more interesting then the drier, non-conspiratorial takes on the subject, but they're still bull****! Perhaps I'm just a nitpicky amateur naval historian, but it pisses me off when blatantly fabricated or inaccurate books on naval matters get published and people accept them unconditionally because they're "well written" or "feel truthful." I might be a skeptical bastard, but I think I've been given plenty of ammunition over the years. __________________ My Amazon.com reviews

04-10-10, 11:35 AM	#62
mcarlsonus Weps Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 362 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	You know, there is a culture in military circles - and I'm sure it was around before, during, and after WW2 - that traditionally OVER-inflates the capabilities and successes of ones enemies! If you fought and won against, "that guy," one can rest assured the referred to, "guy" was the toughest, meanest, most skilled person who ever walked the Earth! Enhancing someone's track record to promote sales isn't unusual.

04-10-10, 11:44 AM	#63
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I just read the introduction on books.google.com. The author absolutely claims it is true. He says the book tells of his personal experiences and exists to "set the record straight." He goes on to state it was checked vs his notes, and other sources though still mostly from memory, and also claims the dates and hours are usually accurate "to the minute." You cannot argue it was written and presented as history. Any factual errors that are clearly made up damn the book as a fraud. Minor differences with reality as would be expected in a personal account are fine, no recollection is perfect. But it crosses the line when things are made up. OP should write a review for Amazon spelling out the errors so there is at least one review there that isn't glowing.

04-10-10, 12:17 PM	#64
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Maybe the facts clear up the real reason he survived the war. I've read it several times and who can not question the super skills he claims. I mean really he went through every possible situation possible and lived. I didn't have to check the facts to realize he added much fiction to the book. I also agree with the post on Gene and the Barb, another ego maniac.

04-10-10, 01:17 PM	#67
Moeceefus 中国水兵 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New York Posts: 278 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	stephen colbert's word "truthiness" comes to mind

04-10-10, 04:13 PM	#70
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Which one is flag4, and which is ianc?

04-10-10, 04:20 PM	#71
sergei Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 1,788 Downloads: 405 Uploads: 29	You just made me spill my beer

04-10-10, 07:20 PM	#73
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Post #65 is silly. The guy fabricates war stories, publishes them as history, then your reaction is that the most plausible rationale is mental illness? The most plausible explanation is that he wanted to make money, and if it was self-serving into the bargain, so much the better. That explains it without the fantasy of mental illness. It's a fabrication, and he did it for his own reasons. Doesn't change that it is a fabrication, and bad history. tater PS---making someone spill his beer or spit coffee through his nose onto a keyboard is like firing a torpedo blind at max range and taking out a battleship. Worth it

04-10-10, 07:23 PM	#74
IanC Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Running silent and deep Posts: 902 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	That's what I thought about you. Thanks for confirming.

04-10-10, 07:37 PM	#75
mcarlsonus Weps Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 362 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	SO, anyway... I was watching an occasionally-funny movie The Onion News. About an hour in, there is a faux roundtable discussion regarding the movie's treatment and portrayal of stereotypical non-WASP's. Among the participants was Gedde Watanabe, who played, "Long Duc Dong" in Sixteen Candles, among other things. He was asked how he felt about the way Asians were being portrayed in the movie and responded, "Me no rikey!" I was reminded of Eugene Fluckey's portrayal of the two POW's he had on his boat during the time Thunder Below took place. Similar conversation between Our Hero and POW's was routine. He named one of them, "Kamikaze." Can't remember the other, but only one was actually Japanese. Of course, under Fluckey's tutelage, both, "saw the light" and changed loyalties with great rapidity. One of 'em was actually disappointed he wasn't allowed to go ashore and help out on the train mining mission! In the picture above, #2 from the left is me. Someone was holding up a donut just offscreen when the picture was taken...