SH5 Dick'O Kane (DoK) Tutorial

[Aufklarer]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

Since you already have the gyro angle displayed on the screen, why don't you use it?

In your shot the gyro was 7 degrees port. You should've move the periscope a bit until it showed 000. And you don't need to be at a perfect angle either. Just put the right AOB and speed and move the scope until the TDC shows a 000 gyro.

Too many people are getting hung up about this.. I understand that the gyro angle set to 0 will show the lead angle required, but when DoK devised this method he didnt have the advantage of 'linked periscope to gyro' that Gutted mentioned earlier. DoK couldnt have accurately known where to move his periscope to achieve the perfect 000 on his gyroscope because his submarine didnt have the facility that the german UBoats did.

While i know that it isnt the most precise solution it is still a historically proven method that was used and that is what i tried to demonstrate. The tutorial is meant to show the DoK attack method, and this is what it does. Variations of angle speed and such are not part of his original method of attack, advances in submarine optics and TDC made the job ever more easier allowing for the variations pointed out previously.

I thank everyone for their comments, but i would like to hear about points people have relating to the DoK attack method specifically.

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by Aufklarer

but when DoK devised this method he didnt have the advantage of 'linked periscope to gyro' that Gutted mentioned earlier.

1. This is not devised by DoK but based one some of the most basic principles of torpedo usage and proably invented much much earlier. IIRC Rockin Robbins just named it such because he had read in a book that DoK used such method and needed a good name when he wrote the original tutorial.
2. Real US TDC's did have a direct link to the periscope, something which just isn't modelled in SH4.

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by Aufklarer

Too many people are getting hung up about this.. I understand that the gyro angle set to 0 will show the lead angle required, but when DoK devised this method he didnt have the advantage of 'linked periscope to gyro' that Gutted mentioned earlier. DoK couldnt have accurately known where to move his periscope to achieve the perfect 000 on his gyroscope because his submarine didnt have the facility that the german UBoats did.

While i know that it isnt the most precise solution it is still a historically proven method that was used and that is what i tried to demonstrate. The tutorial is meant to show the DoK attack method, and this is what it does. Variations of angle speed and such are not part of his original method of attack, advances in submarine optics and TDC made the job ever more easier allowing for the variations pointed out previously.

I thank everyone for their comments, but i would like to hear about points people have relating to the DoK attack method specifically.

For a 000 gyroangle shot, it takes 5 minutes of elementary geometry to figure out a formula and print out a few tables with all AOBS and Speeds possible. Actually here's the formula:

Vs-speed of ship
Vt- speed of torpedo
B- 000 gyro bearing
AOB- angle on bow of target at bearing B (at the moment of fire)
this is actually AOB=(Intercept_angle - B)

From the law of sines:

Vs/sin(B)=Vt/sin(AOB)

and after 2-3 minutes you end up with (i might've done something wrong, I was writing in notepad after all):
B=atan[(Vs * sin I)/(Vt + Vs * cos I)]
And there you go, ready for excel (or angle charts if you were using Norie's tables)

Quick checkup: I=90 degrees
B=atan(Vs/Vt)....


Using this in Excel you get:

torp____ship__Bearing for 000 gyro
40_____1_____1.432096184
40_____2_____2.862405226
40_____3_____4.289153329
40_____4_____5.710593137
40_____5_____7.125016349
40_____6_____8.53076561
40_____7_____9.926245507
40_____8_____11.30993247
40_____9_____12.68038349
40_____10____14.03624347
40_____11____15.37625125
40_____12____16.69924423
40_____13____18.00416161
40_____14____19.29004622
40_____15____20.55604522
40_____16____21.80140949
40_____17____23.02549201
40_____18____24.22774532
40_____19____25.40771811
40_____20____26.56505118

Now, O'Kane might not have had his periscope linked to the German TDC (would've been funny). But if a math noob like me can do this in 5 minutes with highschool geometry, i'm sure he could too.

[Aufklarer]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

For a 000 gyroangle shot, it takes 5 minutes of elementary geometry to figure out a formula and print out a few tables with all AOBS and Speeds possible. Actually here's the formula:

Vs-speed of ship
Vt- speed of torpedo
B- 000 gyro bearing
AOB- angle on bow of target at bearing B (at the moment of fire)
this is actually AOB=(Intercept_angle - B)

From the law of sines:

Vs/sin(B)=Vt/sin(AOB)

and after 2-3 minutes you end up with (i might've done something wrong, I was writing in notepad after all):
B=atan[(Vs * sin I)/(Vt + Vs * cos I)]
And there you go, ready for excel (or angle charts if you were using Norie's tables)

Quick checkup: I=90 degrees
B=atan(Vs/Vt)....


Using this in Excel you get:

torp____ship__Bearing for 000 gyro
40_____1_____1.432096184
40_____2_____2.862405226
40_____3_____4.289153329
40_____4_____5.710593137
40_____5_____7.125016349
40_____6_____8.53076561
40_____7_____9.926245507
40_____8_____11.30993247
40_____9_____12.68038349
40_____10____14.03624347
40_____11____15.37625125
40_____12____16.69924423
40_____13____18.00416161
40_____14____19.29004622
40_____15____20.55604522
40_____16____21.80140949
40_____17____23.02549201
40_____18____24.22774532
40_____19____25.40771811
40_____20____26.56505118

Now, O'Kane might not have had his periscope linked to the German TDC (would've been funny). But if a math noob like me can do this in 5 minutes with highschool geometry, i'm sure he could too.

The fact remains that i am demonstrating the DoK method of attack, the intricacies of which are immaterial, i followed his supposed method taking an arbitrary lead angle and managed to produce consistant results. It is possible to work out every detail to 8 decimal places, but this isnt required for me to sink ships.

Once again id ask for comments relating to the tutorial of the DoK method, and not nit picking which this has become.

[gutted]

Originally Posted by Aufklarer

The fact remains that i am demonstrating the DoK method of attack, the intricacies of which are immaterial, i followed his supposed method taking an arbitrary lead angle and managed to produce consistant results. It is possible to work out every detail to 8 decimal places, but this isnt required for me to sink ships.

If you actually follow the Rockin Robbin DoK tutorials... he picks an arbitrary lead angle.. then sets up the TDC for what the target would be AT that lead angle. This ofcourse because the U.S. AOB and Periscope are not linked in SHIV, so you just have to pick a point (using his method). But it's still using the TDC to figure out where to point the torpedoes.

That said, if the angle you pick does not result in a zero gyro.. you are still going to need the range if you want complete accuracy. Depending on how far away your are it may not be needed. The error will depend mostly on how fast the target is moving and how far away you are.

In any case though.. .it's just Rockin Robbin's preffered method with Dick Okane's name attached to it because he wanted to. Just like the same version of this when approaching a 45 degree angle he named it the J.P. Cromwell.

This is just common sense stuff and i will never call it those things.

[kylania]

Originally Posted by Aufklarer

Once again id ask for comments relating to the tutorial of the DoK method, and not nit picking which this has become.

The tutorial is very good and well made, with great pictures and easy to understand the method described.

The comments relating to the tutorial (nitpicking, as you've labeled it) comes from the fact that you're ignoring German technology (the gyroangle) in a tutorial presumably for German u-boats (posted here) because your source material didn't have it. It's a great tutorial, just missing the use of boat specific tools.

[gutted]

yeah, i didn't mean to nitpick it so much. but when you start out with these mis-informations i felt compelled to:

1 - You MUST Engage targets from exactly 90'. WRONG
2 - The DoK attack method eliminates range from the firing solution and it is therefore not used. WRONG

It should be:
1. It works for any angle.
2. A zero gyro angle is what eliminates range.

I do this not to annoy you, but to inform anyone who decides to jump on this DoK bandwagon (like what was done in SHIV for awhile), what they REALLY should know. Especially since this is a U-Boat TDC, and not using it for what it's good at is just... well... lunacy. The whole purpose behind the DoK method was to get around having to use the Position Keeper in the U.S. boats.

[looney]

I always use this type of attack at any AOB.. that is the beauty of the german TDC. You set it up pre firing.

All you need is the track and speed of the target.

This tutorial is very well written and is very helpful for new players.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Fincuan

1. This is not devised by DoK but based one some of the most basic principles of torpedo usage and proably invented much much earlier. IIRC Rockin Robbins just named it such because he had read in a book that DoK used such method and needed a good name when he wrote the original tutorial.
2. Real US TDC's did have a direct link to the periscope, something which just isn't modelled in SH4.

It's true, the actual method that Dick O'Kane used was not at all like the method presented as the 'Dick O'Kane' method, where it's innacurate, but works because you are close and the gyro angle are small.

Only the TDC mark 4 had a direct link to the periscope bearing, but it was not a direct input, it was for information purposes only. The earlier marks of TDC (like O'Kane had) did not have a direct link to the periscope. The true O'Kane method is to use the TDC to calculate the point of intersection between the periscope's line of sight and the target's track and direct all torpedoes to that point at any given moment. Gyro angle is not a concern.

Well done Aufklarer for posting a tutorial to help people!

[Aufklarer]

Originally Posted by gutted

yeah, i didn't mean to nitpick it so much. but when you start out with these mis-informations i felt compelled to:

1 - You MUST Engage targets from exactly 90'. WRONG
2 - The DoK attack method eliminates range from the firing solution and it is therefore not used. WRONG

It should be:
1. It works for any angle.
2. A zero gyro angle is what eliminates range.

I do this not to annoy you, but to inform anyone who decides to jump on this DoK bandwagon (like what was done in SHIV for awhile), what they REALLY should know. Especially since this is a U-Boat TDC, and not using it for what it's good at is just... well... lunacy. The whole purpose behind the DoK method was to get around having to use the Position Keeper in the U.S. boats.

I essentially transfered this into the SH5 platform i hoped it could give a better understanding for players new to manual tdc, i will amend the opening points as gutted has mentioned above. For me i have also learnt things from the points raised so far such as:

1. It works for any angle.
2. A zero gyro angle is what eliminates range.

I am still unsure in the case of your second point as to why my shots didnt miss even though at the point of firing my gyro angle was around the 7.4 mark (Slide 17). If i understand you correctly it would now introduce range? i set that to 10k.

I will amend as required so as to not misinform people, all critisisms are greatly recieved and hopefully it will lead to a greater understanding for people reading this thread.

TUTORIAL EDITED TO ADDRESS DISCREPANCIES AND MISINFOMATION (Thanks to those who commented)

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by Aufklarer

The fact remains that i am demonstrating the DoK method of attack, the intricacies of which are immaterial, i followed his supposed method taking an arbitrary lead angle and managed to produce consistant results. It is possible to work out every detail to 8 decimal places, but this isnt required for me to sink ships.

Once again id ask for comments relating to the tutorial of the DoK method, and not nit picking which this has become.

I wasn't nitpicking, I pointed out what I saw to be a flaw in the technique. To all extents and purposes, you can hit any target from any angle as long as you input good aob+range+speed. The reason why we use the perpendicular approach is mainly to shoot with impact detonators. Plus, it's easy to estimate AOB's. One trick I've used for a while now is to go on a 110 degree intercept course based on estimated AOB. This way, the target's AOB will be a nice 90 degrees when it reaches a relative bearing of 20. Plus you get a much better speed estimation when you can clearly see the broadside of a ship.

But the big flaw is that you can only do this attack with ample preparation. You need to overtake moving away targets and so on. Now, If you're gonna do that, why would you arbitrarily choose the los-bearing in the end? You have a TDC that does it for you, or, if you're using an american sub, you can set it up for a 000 gyro shot and then use printed tables to figure out when to shoot. Navies still use tables for pretty much anything you can think of. Or do as Gutted did and plot your solution way in advance Estimation and by-the-eye shooting is only done when you don't know a piece of info or the target is moving about wildly.

[Aufklarer]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

I wasn't nitpicking, I pointed out what I saw to be a flaw in the technique. To all extents and purposes, you can hit any target from any angle as long as you input good aob+range+speed. The reason why we use the perpendicular approach is mainly to shoot with impact detonators. Plus, it's easy to estimate AOB's. One trick I've used for a while now is to go on a 110 degree intercept course based on estimated AOB. This way, the target's AOB will be a nice 90 degrees when it reaches a relative bearing of 20. Plus you get a much better speed estimation when you can clearly see the broadside of a ship.

But the big flaw is that you can only do this attack with ample preparation. You need to overtake moving away targets and so on. Now, If you're gonna do that, why would you arbitrarily choose the los-bearing in the end? You have a TDC that does it for you, or, if you're using an american sub, you can set it up for a 000 gyro shot and then use printed tables to figure out when to shoot. Navies still use tables for pretty much anything you can think of. Or do as Gutted did and plot your solution way in advance Estimation and by-the-eye shooting is only done when you don't know a piece of info or the target is moving about wildly.

I agree, noone is suggesting that you should use DoK above some other methods which as stated in the opening part of the tutorial are more accurate; especially taking into account the German TDC.

It was simply a demonstration of DoK which is a proven method of attack. The fact that other solutions (given the advanced german TDC) are more precise and better suited to a given situation, Some of which have been discussed by Gutted and yourself, dosnt devalue DoK. . I accept that it is a little used method in SH5, but a method none the less.

[gutted]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

For a 000 gyroangle shot, it takes 5 minutes of elementary geometry to figure out a formula and print out a few tables with all AOBS and Speeds possible. Actually here's the formula:.

You dont need to do any math to figure it out. You can easily find it with just a few quick strokes of the map tools. Just draw two course lines according to the intercept angle on bow... then measure out the speeds of both the target and torpedo and get the angle needed.