SH5 (campaign) is so boring

[Placoderm]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Yes, I did read the actually read his post. I'm just trying to help the guy out, so please don't be so negative about it, like I did something bad.

If he has tried all of the mods and still finds that attacking in Scapa Flow on the surface has not been 'spiced up' then, either, he hasn't tried all the mods or he hasn't installed all the mods properly. So, I was trying to be helpful.

If I were to read and take his post as literal then:

Wouldn't make any sense would it? I mean, if he has literally tried everything, then what could we possibly suggest, other than to try something again. So, I took it that he hadn't really tried everything, or every mod and was trying to point him in the right direction, but I suppose a thread like this couldn't last five minutes without some negative outpouring at some point.

I see you have managed to respond to a thread asking 'how do I make this game more exciting' with a post pointing out all the things in the game that you personally don't like, but not one single positive suggestion. This forums isn't just about what you don't like about the game, it's about trying to help others out as well, if you can.

A stated above, I do concede that I, too, misread his post Nisgeis, in that I had assumed that he was looking for a more realistic combat experience. Having myself just passed up that juicy convoy late last night due to it being in the 'wrong place'...I was reading my own interpretation into his words, and for that I apologize.

On the other hand, I did not point out "all the things in the game that I personally don't like", but simply the one that I thought he was referring to. Again, that was my mistake in interpreting his original posts' 5th sentence as being frustrated with the scripting. Obviously, I was wrong in that belief.

Where we differ is in your feeling that all that I post is negativity when you say "This forums isn't just about what you don't like about the game, it's about trying to help others out as well, if you can". Apparently unknown to you, I have posted help whenever I can both recently as well as in years past with SH3&4, and have supported the genre in many ways that you do not know, although in it's current state I cannot help but also highlight the failings when I feel it is relevant to the conversation and the future of the series. Sometimes I might be right, and sometimes I will be dead wrong...but that does not preclude me from participation. The attitude that it does shall do more damage to this forum than any remarks about SH5's numerous failings ever will.

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Pssst! You're playing the wrong game.

Heh, that about sums it up Neal.

[Zedi]

Actually Placoderm had right. It's exactly I was talking about. Only difference is that I was talking not only by how boring is the campaign, but everything in the game, including the historical mission and MP. Maybe if the AI would be smarter, maybe if the crew would actually count on the ship management things would be different.

Speaking about the campaigns I also had to pass on many convoys only because I was short on amo and the mission objective was asking me to sink a certain type of ship. For example in the first campaign hunting the damn carrier in Atlantic I had to pass at least 3 huge convoys because I had only 5 torpedoes left. How painful can be this sight for a real sub captain:
- bdu, I have a large convoy on sight, can I get them?
- No, we dont have any interest in convoys in this war, we need only one carrier sunk. And make sure that carrier is right in the middle of Atlantic or you will be punished.

Later on, operation weserubung was my nightmare. Sunk tons of battleships in Scapa right before the invasion, still that was not count for the main mission. Had to search the damn battleship for more than 3 day to find it and be able to complete the mission and the campaign.

Another example, the Western approaches campaign. Tried to do the Winston's Special mission, so I set up my patrols near Freetown where those troop carriers should arrive. I engaged 3 convoys and also a group of 3 Dido's with no result on mission. Then I got bored of waiting so I vent up in north Atlantic to try the British Supplies mission. Guess what.. no convoys for days, all reports of convoys was out of the mission area.

So yes, this is the boring part I was talking about, the mission objectives. Go out and try to find the needle in the hay, nothing more or less. So that's why I was thinking about some other kind of missions, more dynamic and fun. Instead of going out in the middle of nowhere and try to find the only target that can count for the mission and pass everything else, how about set up some dynamic mission areas where anything can happen.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Placoderm

A stated above, I do concede that I, too, misread his post Nisgeis, in that I had assumed that he was looking for a more realistic combat experience. Having myself just passed up that juicy convoy late last night due to it being in the 'wrong place'...I was reading my own interpretation into his words, and for that I apologize.

On the other hand, I did not point out "all the things in the game that I personally don't like", but simply the one that I thought he was referring to. Again, that was my mistake in interpreting his original posts' 5th sentence as being frustrated with the scripting. Obviously, I was wrong in that belief.

Where we differ is in your feeling that all that I post is negativity when you say "This forums isn't just about what you don't like about the game, it's about trying to help others out as well, if you can". Apparently unknown to you, I have posted help whenever I can both recently as well as in years past with SH3&4, and have supported the genre in many ways that you do not know, although in it's current state I cannot help but also highlight the failings when I feel it is relevant to the conversation and the future of the series. Sometimes I might be right, and sometimes I will be dead wrong...but that does not preclude me from participation. The attitude that it does shall do more damage to this forum than any remarks about SH5's numerous failings ever will.

I wouldn't read too much into it matey - with all the drama lately we're all a little jumpy.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Magnum

Actually Placoderm had right. It's exactly I was talking about. Only difference is that I was talking not only by how boring is the campaign, but everything in the game, including the historical mission and MP. Maybe if the AI would be smarter, maybe if the crew would actually count on the ship management things would be different.

Speaking about the campaigns I also had to pass on many convoys only because I was short on amo and the mission objective was asking me to sink a certain type of ship. For example in the first campaign hunting the damn carrier in Atlantic I had to pass at least 3 huge convoys because I had only 5 torpedoes left. How painful can be this sight for a real sub captain:
- bdu, I have a large convoy on sight, can I get them?
- No, we dont have any interest in convoys in this war, we need only one carrier sunk. And make sure that carrier is right in the middle of Atlantic or you will be punished.

Later on, operation weserubung was my nightmare. Sunk tons of battleships in Scapa right before the invasion, still that was not count for the main mission. Had to search the damn battleship for more than 3 day to find it and be able to complete the mission and the campaign.

Another example, the Western approaches campaign. Tried to do the Winston's Special mission, so I set up my patrols near Freetown where those troop carriers should arrive. I engaged 3 convoys and also a group of 3 Dido's with no result on mission. Then I got bored of waiting so I vent up in north Atlantic to try the British Supplies mission. Guess what.. no convoys for days, all reports of convoys was out of the mission area.

So yes, this is the boring part I was talking about, the mission objectives. Go out and try to find the needle in the hay, nothing more or less. So that's why I was thinking about some other kind of missions, more dynamic and fun. Instead of going out in the middle of nowhere and try to find the only target that can count for the mission and pass everything else, how about set up some dynamic mission areas where anything can happen.

I do see your point - trouble is the stuff you are finding boring, is the stuff I love.

You made some good suggestions, but to be honest - I wouldn't buy that game , really wouldn't appeal to me. I love the thrill of stalking a convoy.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Placoderm

On the other hand, I did not point out "all the things in the game that I personally don't like", but simply the one that I thought he was referring to.

I was referring to this thread only, but yes I wasn't clear. I don't mean that all that you post is negative. There are a lot of threads being hijacked that should be on one topic, but somehow manage to get dragged off into a kick SH5 session.

Originally Posted by robbo180265

I wouldn't read too much into it matey - with all the drama lately we're all a little jumpy.

Oh yes.

Originally Posted by Magnum

Actually Placoderm had right. It's exactly I was talking about. Only difference is that I was talking not only by how boring is the campaign, but everything in the game, including the historical mission and MP. Maybe if the AI would be smarter, maybe if the crew would actually count on the ship management things would be different.

What does 'if the crew would actually count on the ship management' mean? If you were complaing about everything in the game, there's probably not much hope of a salvage of it for you, even with a patch and mods.

But, as you're complaining about the AI, but have you tried any of the AI mods? I know you said you had tried 'everything', but if you have tried one of the AI mods, then you should have noticed a difference.

[Westbroek]

I feel that the element of luck involved when out on patrol is exactly what the game needed. It took me a while to come around to it though.
I take it upon myself to act exactly as would a real captain. If I find a juicy convoy, I'll make ships sink regardless of my "wouldn't it be great" BDU wishful thinking. Now if I find a convoy escorted by a capital ship, and BDU has asked me to do what I can to sink a few of those bad boys, then that's priority number one.
I figure this way, I'll complete the objectives that I can and progress through my career realistically. I will be happy leaving it to chance, as it really was.
The real benefit to this is that it will actually lend replayability to a campaign mode that I once feared would lack it completely.

[Placoderm]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

I was referring to this thread only, but yes I wasn't clear. I don't mean that all that you post is negative. There are a lot of threads being hijacked that should be on one topic, but somehow manage to get dragged off into a kick SH5 session.

Fair enough, and I am sorry to admit that a disproportionate number of my recent posts have been...um...critical...but hopefully in a constructive way.


I think a group hug is in order!

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

But, as you're complaining about the AI, but have you tried any of the AI mods? I know you said you had tried 'everything', but if you have tried one of the AI mods, then you should have noticed a difference.

You know, I just had an epiphany that perhaps Magnum did try that, but did not start the mod while in port. I did that initially, and was rather unimpressed with the changes (which, in retrospect, there were none)...until I disabled and then re-enabled my mods the next time I was in port. Graphics-only mods can be installed anywhere, but if I am correct anything that changes the game parameters must be installed only when in port.

It still ain't perfect, but at least Scapa Flow on the surface would be a tad more challenging...

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

I wouldn't read too much into it matey - with all the drama lately we're all a little jumpy.

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Oh yes.

you think?

this is what I felt like yesterday...

[Placoderm]

Originally Posted by Magnum

Actually Placoderm had right. It's exactly I was talking about. Only difference is that I was talking not only by how boring is the campaign, but everything in the game, including the historical mission and MP. Maybe if the AI would be smarter, maybe if the crew would actually count on the ship management things would be different.

Speaking about the campaigns I also had to pass on many convoys only because I was short on amo and the mission objective was asking me to sink a certain type of ship. For example in the first campaign hunting the damn carrier in Atlantic I had to pass at least 3 huge convoys because I had only 5 torpedoes left. How painful can be this sight for a real sub captain:
- bdu, I have a large convoy on sight, can I get them?
- No, we dont have any interest in convoys in this war, we need only one carrier sunk. And make sure that carrier is right in the middle of Atlantic or you will be punished.

Later on, operation weserubung was my nightmare. Sunk tons of battleships in Scapa right before the invasion, still that was not count for the main mission. Had to search the damn battleship for more than 3 day to find it and be able to complete the mission and the campaign.

Another example, the Western approaches campaign. Tried to do the Winston's Special mission, so I set up my patrols near Freetown where those troop carriers should arrive. I engaged 3 convoys and also a group of 3 Dido's with no result on mission. Then I got bored of waiting so I vent up in north Atlantic to try the British Supplies mission. Guess what.. no convoys for days, all reports of convoys was out of the mission area.

So yes, this is the boring part I was talking about, the mission objectives. Go out and try to find the needle in the hay, nothing more or less. So that's why I was thinking about some other kind of missions, more dynamic and fun. Instead of going out in the middle of nowhere and try to find the only target that can count for the mission and pass everything else, how about set up some dynamic mission areas where anything can happen.

Well, at least I wasn't completely nuts in reading your first post. It is highly frustrating to me to have to save my eels for that one 'special target' whilst passing up perfectly good convoys...but with time and a few patches hopefully that will be fixed.

Ideally, what we really need is to have more user-made missions and campaigns...but that will take a while. I am trying to learn the mission editor, and hopefully someday Neal will have a dedicated Missions forum (unless there already is one that I haven't found yet) so that we can enjoy some more historically accurate mission designs. It took a while before RSRD (the 'Run Silent, Run Deep' campaign) was created for SH4, and that has literally transformed the game for me (although I still suck...at least I suck in a historical way).

I still long for a truly dynamic world and more historical objectives that are in line with what a U-boat commander might face...but that is probably still months in the future, at best.

The problem with scripting is that everything relies on triggers, and if you miss that one most important trigger, then nothing works as expected. To design a mission that continues to offer challenge even if you miss a critical trigger can be very hard to build...but it is possible (primarily by creating dozens of alternate triggers and/or a global trigger of sorts). I used to design campaigns for ARMA and the original OFP, so perhaps some of that will come in handy...but again, that will take time that I may not have right now...but someone might, given time.

In any case, there is some hope since we have the mission editor to play with. For that, I am very thankful!

[Zedi]

Placoderm, is not possible to write a mission based on random events? Give a start objective in a narrow area and fill it with random events, then let the AI build the mission finale.

For example, the start objective is to sink 1 merchant in a 100km radius. Then fill this area with random events.. passing convoys, planes, carriers and even german U-boats who will engage your target if you moving slow. So these possible events will trigger new objectives. If a carrier will get into the battle area, the new objective would be to forgot the merchant and sink the carrier and so on.

Yeah I know, the main problem here is the retard AI. But if the AI would be smart enough, actually the AI could build up a very dynamic mission and even campaign. Is this possible?

[HKLE]

How about SH3 with GWX ?

[JScones]

Originally Posted by kylania

If you're not enjoying the missions, completely ignore them. Just play it how you'd normally play SH3, go out and sink tonnage.

Can one go specifically to, say, grid "AM52", or "BF17", or would one just randomly roam the seas?

I must admit I quite like the SH3 approach. Sure, each patrol is the same "goto X, patrol for 24 hours, then, erm, yeah, um, go home at some time or BE MORE AGGRESSIVE", but IMHO I think that's waaaay more realistic than the missions that I've read people having to tackle here.

Kinda reminds me a little bit of SH2 - I *still* have the first mission burned into my brain - sink the three Polish Destroyers before they flee to England. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!

Anyway, I'm sure in two patch's time there'll be an array of "mission packs" developed, some to suit the "instant gratification" crowd and some to suit the "slow stalkers".

Originally Posted by mr chris

Same here. It's my major gripe with the game. Hopefully in time this will be rectified By the Modders or some form of DLC?

X1 SOFTWARE

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Magnum

Yeah I know, the main problem here is the retard AI. But if the AI would be smart enough, actually the AI could build up a very dynamic mission and even campaign. Is this possible?

You know, it's really hard to help someone who won't give any feedback, or respond... Have you tried any of the AI mods?

Originally Posted by JScones

Can one go specifically to, say, grid "AM52", or "BF17", or would one just randomly roam the seas?

In SH5, you get two missions, a campaign mission and then a patrol mission. The patrol mission will tell you to go to a certain place and patrol round there. It's not a KM grid reference, just an icon which you steam to. The mission patrol area will be inside the much larger area where your campaign mission is, so you are in effect being sent to patrol in certain locations, according to the current priorities of BDU. Sure, you can sink a few ships on the way, but it won't count towards the campaign goal if it's not within the right area.

When boats were ordered to the US coast for Operation 'Roll of Drums' or 'Drumbeat', then the boats were orderd to not attack anything on the way, unless it was 10,000 tons or greater, as the aim was to detroy shipping around the US coast. It seems reasonable to have these campaign goals not count shipping sunk in other areas. If shipping is sunk off the coast of England, that shouldn't really count towards operation 'Drumbeat'. If you don't sink anything, after a few days you'll be ordered to a new patrol area. You can if you like completely ignore your orders and go harbour raiding, or off to see New York or Canada, but it won't help with BDU's goals.

[mcarlsonus]

Originally Posted by JScones

Can one go specifically to, say, grid "AM52", or "BF17", or would one just randomly roam the seas?

No grids any more. One goes to an icon representing what I interpret to be the center of a patrol area. Using the icon as a center point, I draw a 150-200 km (radius) circle around it. I then wander about inside the circle until I'm thoroughly sick of it, or I get a message from BdU indicating my patrol area's changed. Since success in the Campaigns is based on ones sinking of craft INSIDE a patrol area of uncertain size, I've no idea if 150-200 is too large or too small. Campaign success is optional, however, and I no longer even bother trying to accomplish the outrageous requirements for said, "success!"

Originally Posted by JScones

I must admit I quite like the SH3 approach. Sure, each patrol is the same "goto X, patrol for 24 hours, then, erm, yeah, um, go home at some time or BE MORE AGGRESSIVE", but IMHO I think that's w aaaay more realistic than the missions that I've read people having to tackle here.

We still get the, "Be More Aggressive, you incompetent reprobate!" messages from the BdU!