Cost estimate for F-35 to soar, Pentagon says

[Freiwillige]

I think upgrading existing technology should keep us competitive in the global market while keeping relative costs down.

Take the F-15 for example..What would happen if we added the engines and radar of the F-22 and threw in the forward canards and thrust vectoring?

Competitive at the very least!

Sure build some F-22's just to keep that edge while maintaining and upgrading what we know already works for 90% of all situations.

[Bubblehead1980]

I have some former military pilots in my family, some Naval Aviators, Some Air Force.An uncle by marriage flew F-14's(a real fighter) and F/A-18's While he likes the F-35 he strongly disapproves of the single engine for them which due to the the NAVY's propensity to operate over water, makes since to have two engines, why most Navy jets like F-4, F-14, F/A-18 have had two engines, safety.As far as upgrading the F-15's etc, well their airframes are old and need to be retired so better to get a new fleet of planes.Defense is expensive but a justified expense and cutting corners only weakens our ability to defend ourselves and project power worldwide.We would have more money if we did not have so many damn entitlments already and it seems they are set on growing them more.I just don't want us to end up in the UK's situation.

[Buddahaid]

Challenge. Name one post WW2 military aircraft that stayed on budget? I can't think of one, or find any information on the topic.

[Freiwillige]

Funny I had an Uncle that flew F-14's in the 80's. Did you know that for every hour that bird flew it took 80 maintenance hours!!! Great aircraft but a bit labor intensive to say the least which is why they were fazed out early.

In comparison the F-18E takes 12-16 maintenance hours per flight hour.


And as far as F-15 airframes I believe some of the later ones have quite a bit of life left on them as they are to remain in service at least another 15+ years.

And interestingly enough there was a concept proposed to the navy to buy Su-27\33 airframes and load them with American engines, avionics, weapons systems and radars! The cost was incredibly low compared to home built aircraft and a deal was even on the table with the Russians before the pentagon pulled it.

I am just saying that defense budgets are out of control much like Washington's budgets.

Time to make the market competitive again.

Oh you cannot build it for what we agreed on? Fine cancel the contract we will be looking elsewhere.

[Buddahaid]

Well to be fair things are way more complicated than they used to be when there were several independent companies, as well as in-house shops like NAF. Still, after the design choice and finalization there seems to be cost overruns, and the first orders are often at inflated prices to make the venture profitable. This is because they know the order can be cut at any time on short notice.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

Oh you cannot build it for what we agreed on? Fine cancel the contract we will be looking elsewhere.

it is not that easy. That sort of Firm-Fixed-Price can only work if there is an existing static design. Make me 10 F-16Fs for $30,000,000 a piece.

The problem is when the government wants innovation and the ability to change specifications during development. From the Contractor's standpoint, this is risk and risk needs to be mitigated.

Let's assume the government wants the contractor to assume all program risks via a FFP contract

1. It will be hard to find a contractor willing to take that risk
2. If a contractor is willing to take on that risk, they will have a very high price to mitigate some of the risks

The traditional solution is for the government to assume some of the risks. This is why we have Cost Plus and Time and Materials types of contracts. In these contract venues, the contractor can afford to bid lower, with the reassurance that if (when) the government makes changes, the costs of these changes will be paid for by the customer.

The problem with CP and T&M contracts is that they are prone to abuse by both the contractor and the government (It is the governmental abuse that discourages contractors from entering in to FFP contracts)

So you idea of "here is the price" can only work if there is a static specification which is not, unfortunately, how the government like to run its weapon procurement programs.

As for canceling the contract? There are complications. It took the US government 17 years to win the A-12 case and they still have not gotten their money.

McDonnell Douglas v. U.S., 07-5111, -5131, U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit

[Zachstar]

Lockmart has the taxpayer over a barrel. The US isn't going to cancel the F-35 at this point because of what has been spent and that there is nothing on the table for another manned fighter design.

It's just a case of having to suck it up and live with it. Perhaps punish them tho with a bit of a cut in orders you can bet your butt that they will lose quite a few international orders who were concerned even with the old price.

[tater]

We need to keep SOME warplanes under production at all times, IMO. Preferably from multiple companies.

Again, I'm happy to see cool stuff like planes bought with my tax dollars. Heck, order more and take every penny out of welfare and entitlements to buy them.

[Zachstar]

Originally Posted by tater

We need to keep SOME warplanes under production at all times, IMO. Preferably from multiple companies.

Again, I'm happy to see cool stuff like planes bought with my tax dollars. Heck, order more and take every penny out of welfare and entitlements to buy them.

Which is why you arent in congress...

People want better schools not more fancy planes.

[Castout]

I wonder what the name they would pick for this jet?

It was the Fighting Falcon for the F-16, the Hornet for the F-18 and the Raptor for the F-22

Umm I KNOW!!!

F-35 Delayed Fighter

Much more suiting than Joint strike fighter.

I still think the F-16 looks better

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Castout

I wonder what the name they would pick for this jet?

It was the Fighting Falcon for the F-16, the Hornet for the F-18 and the Raptor for the F-22

Umm I KNOW!!!

F-35 Delayed Fighter

Much more suiting than Joint strike fighter.

I still think the F-16 looks better

The name is already decided. F-35 Lightning II in honor of both the US P-38 Lighting and the UK English Electric Lighting

[bookworm_020]

I can see Australia not using all it's options on the F-35. I can see the purchase of more F-18E's and UAV's. They are not going to accept increasing costs and less aircraft.

[Bubblehead1980]

[QUOTE=Freiwillige;1352877]Funny I had an Uncle that flew F-14's in the 80's. Did you know that for every hour that bird flew it took 80 maintenance hours!!! Great aircraft but a bit labor intensive to say the least which is why they were fazed out early.

Really? any idea what squadron(s) he was with? Uncle has some cool memorabilla in the guest house/manspace in his backyard, some cool videos and pics form his flying days, he retired about 4 years ago but still regularly flew.The Tomcat's maintenance load was high, he has talked about it but can tell he never minded because it was a great plane.

[Freiwillige]

[QUOTE=Bubblehead1980;1353118]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

Funny I had an Uncle that flew F-14's in the 80's. Did you know that for every hour that bird flew it took 80 maintenance hours!!! Great aircraft but a bit labor intensive to say the least which is why they were fazed out early.

Really? any idea what squadron(s) he was with? Uncle has some cool memorabilla in the guest house/manspace in his backyard, some cool videos and pics form his flying days, he retired about 4 years ago but still regularly flew.The Tomcat's maintenance load was high, he has talked about it but can tell he never minded because it was a great plane.

VF-33 1982-1986 U.S.S. America

[Bubblehead1980]

[QUOTE=Freiwillige;1353675]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

VF-33 1982-1986 U.S.S. America

Cool, Uncle was with VF-31 (and others but that is only one i remember off top of my head) I remember he was an instructor for a while as well with replacement squadron do not remember the number but it was called the reapers or something along that line.Retired as a CAG which from what he told me was a fun assignment. I was working on my pilot's license but sidetracked by college and work, will get it when i have time someday, would kill to take an F-14 up