I finally understand why hate SHV and the devs

JScones · 04-08-10, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBeck

Its comments like this that blame the devs, that makes them think "Why should I spend my time here helping the community?" Devs have spend lots of time in the mods forum supporting the modders....that has stopped now.
Why do you think that is?

They must have very short memories then, because Dan has posted here numerous times just today (the last just over 30mins ago), let alone over the last week. So they can't be that upset. But if they are, I'm sure they can speak for themselves, they're big boys.

TBH I'm amazed that a thread that mentions the words "hate" and "devs" in the same sentence hasn't been blown into oblivion by now. At least a thread merge?

Decoman · 04-08-10, 04:53 AM

'Hate' is an interesting word. I would argue that it unfortunately means more than the obvious angry discontent with something or someone.

What ought to be the topic of serious contemplation or reflect, is the fact that 'hate' is not really directly associated with 'racism' or 'violence'. Anger or ill will would surely be a more apt description of something emotional or expressive, merely *associated* with the word 'hate', 'hatred' or 'hating'.

I am not trying to be clever here to justify ill will in any way, but a discussion of 'hate' or how we use the variants of the word 'hate' ought to be a serious one, because it seem obvious that once there is a watering down or outright condemnation of the word 'hate', it trivialized and barres something serious. It's like condemning people for being or expressing anger in normal ways.

And one way of talking about a normal way, is to point out the fact that people are sometimes really angry, and it is then of little or no importance that the word 'hate' is used, as if the use of the word as such made people angry.

Now, I tried to learn the etymological knowledge about the word 'hate' and so far, it seems like the noun hate or verb hating is linked to the more common word 'hat'. This link is probably not of great importance, but helps sketching out how words are used, and I would say that this link show an example of how this scary word 'hate' can be said to have a more trivial meaning. Afaik, etymology is useful in dealing with dead metaphors, for understanding the forgotten or also subtle meaning of a what can be said to be a dead metaphor. 'Flower bed' is supposedly an example of a dead metaphor.

So, what I came across some time ago (and I have to believe that what I read is not something just made up) is that convicts (unknown of time or place) were tagged by an item, and without any real explanation of the link between hat and hate, (if I remember correcty) the older word 'hatting' was supposedly used for this event. And it seem obvious that in this respect, that 'hate' might very well be understood as a simple exposition by event or some kind of tagging. Simliar to any common mental processes putting words to context. From this there is the obvious danger of harassing others, if one were to try brand or dispose or exlude someone physically. It is safe to claim that noone presently *really* bothers about controlling thought processes, and I don't see how this will change anytime soon other than influencial or a quasi-manipulative media (like being passively relating to *something* by reading newsitems)(probably simply a question of situational acceptance more than anything concrete), but then there is the unavoidable situations where for example the accusation of a 'scandal' of someone/something would only be sensible by means of various forms of expression. As in flat out saying 'I think this blah blah is a scandal and that you (someone) is to be blamed for it'. The legal repercussions or social backlash of such expressions probably simply vary (for a variety of reasons) with levels of, well I don't really know, but I suppose that a policeman or school teacher is likely to risk some kind of negative feedback rather than some guy on the internets.

Now, given our ability to put words to things, even in anger and simple discontent, *to hate x for something* (any reason really) is not really anything like a crime as such. So I am subscribing to two sensible interpretations when 'hate', 'hating' or 'hated' is used. And these two interpretations or ways of understanding is nothing like the stupefying use of categories. 'Hate' never was and probably never will have a categorical meaning, where the word 'hate' is simply a denominator of an action of attitude, doing or simply an interpretation or condemnation. The attitude part is correct of course, but it would be silly to imply that one cannot or should not be angry with something. There is also something odd by the use of 'freedom' in our days, and it probably does not the same thing for every person. For example, it seem obvious that there is a difference in being free (to do something) and having so called 'freedom'. I am undoubtedly free to move about in my appartment as I wish and what is probably known as 'freedom' has nothing to do with this capacity of me moving about, unless one would argue that my very life is depending on society in not outright killing me (it would be absurd, and it would imply that a state or organization owns me like a slave).

Pheu, this became a long text. The world/life is complicated and I see no reason to always trivialize it.

So if I were to state that 'I hate this or that game' for whatever reason stated or otherwise, there probably is something to it, and I mean it would be wrong to categorically dismiss such an expression on the basis of some kind of hate crime. Apologies for mixing the notion of hate-crime with computer games, but I am really trying to make a point.

In Norway, when one hate something, a common way to express this seem to be something of an understatement, where one would say 'I don't like it'. And I want to change that, at least personally. So far, it seem to me that people seem unable to grasp the nuances in the language, probably a result of the trivial use of words in the media the last 20 years or so. Or they just don't care. Maybe they simply have been thinking that I am complaining and that they don't have to listen or understand it because they think I simply intend to argue. It is really simple to deal with critisism. People ought to make points and they ought to explain. Both making points without explanation, and explaining something without making points is bad. Then it perhaps leads to a neverending argument of definitions and problematics of actualizations.

I suppose some kind of ironic distance is healthy, but I really can't relate to things this way, and I don't want my newspapers to relate to people this way.

Hehe, I would say that I hate the newspapers in Norway. They seem to practice shoddy journalism.

I suppose frequent use of 'hate' is stupefying, but then again, what isn't stupefying when used over again and again categorically or generally.

EDIT: I did not intend to start a discussion, but I just wanted to make a point. There are alot of issues that I could touch upon, but I just want to add here this link to a lecture class at Yale university (US) that ought to be inspiring.
Introduction to theory of literature:

DVAFP · 04-08-10, 05:04 AM

I loathe them! I LOATHE them!!!!

GlobalExplorer · 04-08-10, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

TBH I'm amazed that a thread that mentions the words "hate" and "devs" in the same sentence hasn't been blown into oblivion by now. At least a thread merge?

Perhaps people are making these threads faster than Neal can close them down.

Onkel Neal · 04-08-10, 08:35 AM

No, no one wants to lock any threads. But we do want a forum where people enjoy the friendly atmosphere.

Jimbuna · 04-08-10, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Perhaps people are making these threads faster than Neal can close them down.

I suspect that could be a fundamental reason or part of a wider plan why some start these threads.

Far better to exercise a little patience, then when things get out of hand the consequences are more fitting ie: brig time.

There is never any excuse for taking personal liberties toward the games dev team, it is or should be common knowledge that he who pays the piper calls the tune.

I am in no doubt that the devs performed as well and as best they could given the budget and time constraints imposed upon them.

Better to steer all this energy toward working out what is required to improve the game....it's not as if we haven't been in this position before.

AVGWarhawk · 04-08-10, 09:46 AM

Exercise restraint! DO NOT GO INTO THE LIGHT!

Westbroek · 04-08-10, 10:21 AM

I gotta go out on a limb here and say... I love this game.
Flawed? perhaps....
buggy? certainly...
patches on the way...mods on the upswing...more fun and more engrossing than either sh3 vanilla and sh4 vanilla all the way.
I love this game and this community.
2 cents entered.

Faamecanic · 04-08-10, 10:35 AM

The comment I never see made is:

Did the DEVS over promise to UBI KNOWING full well the budget and timeline?

Or did UBI demand the DEVS make all these new features (directly by telling them to do it, or indirectly by making the DEVS feel they HAD to pitch all these new features to get funding from UBI)?

Bottom line is one or BOTH are responsible for not using a level of sanity when proposing all these new (and possibly WONDERFUL if ever finished) addtions to the SH fanchise (ie the RPG element which I like, being able to move about in your sub).

A wiser course of action would have been an improved graphics engine (I LOVE the water in SH5), FIX the bugs that were left over from SH3 and 4, and leave out all the other riff-raff that sucked up massive Dev time.

Then BETA TEST with some of the gifted MODDERS from this forum, and release a game that was 90% bug free, AI that behaved as one would expect, and a sim that did not destroy immersion by being half done.

Capt_Sluggo · 04-08-10, 10:45 AM

As jimbuna, mookiemookie and McBeck point out, it's simple economics.

With (obviously) a lot of personal enthusiasm and commitment by the dev team thrown in. Not to mention the selfless, unpaid efforts of the extensive modder community.

I don't like the unfinished parts either. Had to re-enable the dumb 2-D pop-up radio control from SH3 to get live music back in the boat. It would have been much nicer to go below to the radio room, click on that big antique box, see the rainbow dial slowly glow to life and watch the needle move across the arc as I scan for channels. Want more things like this finished? Then stop belly-aching and instead talk a few friends into buying SH5 too. With double the sales volume, it is a sure bet that we will get a better, more finished effort in future.

The negativity and "loathing" should instead be entirely focused on the lowlife thieves, most of whom come here to this forum ("Hey, why can't I see the mission objectives marked on my map?") expecting to not only shaft the economic equation that keeps SH afloat but to sponge off the efforts of the paying community here that is ultimately responsible for SH's existence and success.

SabreHawk · 04-08-10, 11:34 AM

And whatever the modders do, as genius as it is they are standing on the shoulders of giants. And those giants are the devs who developed and wrote that which our fine and generous modders are working with.

IanC · 04-08-10, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt_Sluggo

Want more things like this finished? Then stop belly-aching and instead talk a few friends into buying SH5 too. With double the sales volume, it is a sure bet that we will get a better, more finished effort in future.

I disagree with that "it's the consumers fault" philosophy. That doesn't make any sense to me. Blame the bad quality because of low sales? Not. How about blaming the low sales because of the bad quality. Does that make any sense?

And I don't need to talk a few friends into anything. They'll buy it themselves when and if they see review scores higher than 6 out of 10.

OldFrenchy · 04-08-10, 01:20 PM

I finally broke down and purchased the game from a solid e-bay seller for $15.50. Hopefully it is legit.
I would like to be able to make up my own mind on this debate over whether SH5 is 'Da Bomb!' or 'The Devil's Spawn!'. I have issues with DRM, but am willing to overlook them at this price and for what I perceive for the potential of this game.
That being said, I think it is unfortunate to berate the Devs when any final commercial release is the result of a corporate decision. I applaud the devs in assisting the modders- good for them! It shows more than just a monetary interest in thier work. They obviously have a sincere interest in this subject, and the Subsim community. Ubisoft is like any other company. Profit is the bottom line. If DRM is going to be a sales killer, then hopefully they will figure it out and remove it like they did with some of their other games. As for further patching by UbiSoft of SH5 after patch #2, I doubt it, so please treat the devs with some respect and brotherhood. The game needs all the friends it can get!

Placoderm · 04-08-10, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanC

I disagree with that "it's the consumers fault" philosophy. That doesn't make any sense to me. Blame the bad quality because of low sales? Not. How about blaming the low sales because of the bad quality. Does that make any sense?

And I don't need to talk a few friends into anything. They'll buy it themselves when and if they see review scores higher than 6 out of 10.

^ This ^

TheSatyr · 04-08-10, 02:31 PM

I kinda blame the Devs more than Ubi for the state the game is in. I'm sure they signed a contract stating that the game would be ready for release on a specific date and for a specific budget. And if the game ISN'T ready by that date than Ubi doesn't have lot of choices:

1)Delay the release,and add more funding. (Not likely since this isn't an AAA title.)
2)Take the financial hit and cancel the project. (Which I'm glad they didn't do.)
3)Release "as is" and try to patch it up to what it was supposed to be. (Which is what they apparently chose to do.).

I'm not trying to knock the Devs here,I just think they may have over reached on what they wanted to acomplish with the time and budget they had.

04-08-10, 08:35 AM	#5
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	No, no one wants to lock any threads. But we do want a forum where people enjoy the friendly atmosphere. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

04-08-10, 09:46 AM	#7
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,281 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Exercise restraint! DO NOT GO INTO THE LIGHT! __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

04-08-10, 10:45 AM	#10
Capt_Sluggo Watch Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Costa Rica Posts: 30 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	Negativity toward Ubi and dev team is naive, misplaced As jimbuna, mookiemookie and McBeck point out, it's simple economics. With (obviously) a lot of personal enthusiasm and commitment by the dev team thrown in. Not to mention the selfless, unpaid efforts of the extensive modder community. I don't like the unfinished parts either. Had to re-enable the dumb 2-D pop-up radio control from SH3 to get live music back in the boat. It would have been much nicer to go below to the radio room, click on that big antique box, see the rainbow dial slowly glow to life and watch the needle move across the arc as I scan for channels. Want more things like this finished? Then stop belly-aching and instead talk a few friends into buying SH5 too. With double the sales volume, it is a sure bet that we will get a better, more finished effort in future. The negativity and "loathing" should instead be entirely focused on the lowlife thieves, most of whom come here to this forum ("Hey, why can't I see the mission objectives marked on my map?") expecting to not only shaft the economic equation that keeps SH afloat but to sponge off the efforts of the paying community here that is ultimately responsible for SH's existence and success.

04-08-10, 11:34 AM	#11
SabreHawk Captain Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seattle, Wa. USA Posts: 530 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	And whatever the modders do, as genius as it is they are standing on the shoulders of giants. And those giants are the devs who developed and wrote that which our fine and generous modders are working with. __________________ "Chance favors the prepared mind"

04-08-10, 04:53 AM	#2
Decoman Frogman Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 306 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	'Hate' is an interesting word. I would argue that it unfortunately means more than the obvious angry discontent with something or someone. What ought to be the topic of serious contemplation or reflect, is the fact that 'hate' is not really directly associated with 'racism' or 'violence'. Anger or ill will would surely be a more apt description of something emotional or expressive, merely associated with the word 'hate', 'hatred' or 'hating'. I am not trying to be clever here to justify ill will in any way, but a discussion of 'hate' or how we use the variants of the word 'hate' ought to be a serious one, because it seem obvious that once there is a watering down or outright condemnation of the word 'hate', it trivialized and barres something serious. It's like condemning people for being or expressing anger in normal ways. And one way of talking about a normal way, is to point out the fact that people are sometimes really angry, and it is then of little or no importance that the word 'hate' is used, as if the use of the word as such made people angry. Now, I tried to learn the etymological knowledge about the word 'hate' and so far, it seems like the noun hate or verb hating is linked to the more common word 'hat'. This link is probably not of great importance, but helps sketching out how words are used, and I would say that this link show an example of how this scary word 'hate' can be said to have a more trivial meaning. Afaik, etymology is useful in dealing with dead metaphors, for understanding the forgotten or also subtle meaning of a what can be said to be a dead metaphor. 'Flower bed' is supposedly an example of a dead metaphor. So, what I came across some time ago (and I have to believe that what I read is not something just made up) is that convicts (unknown of time or place) were tagged by an item, and without any real explanation of the link between hat and hate, (if I remember correcty) the older word 'hatting' was supposedly used for this event. And it seem obvious that in this respect, that 'hate' might very well be understood as a simple exposition by event or some kind of tagging. Simliar to any common mental processes putting words to context. From this there is the obvious danger of harassing others, if one were to try brand or dispose or exlude someone physically. It is safe to claim that noone presently really bothers about controlling thought processes, and I don't see how this will change anytime soon other than influencial or a quasi-manipulative media (like being passively relating to something by reading newsitems)(probably simply a question of situational acceptance more than anything concrete), but then there is the unavoidable situations where for example the accusation of a 'scandal' of someone/something would only be sensible by means of various forms of expression. As in flat out saying 'I think this blah blah is a scandal and that you (someone) is to be blamed for it'. The legal repercussions or social backlash of such expressions probably simply vary (for a variety of reasons) with levels of, well I don't really know, but I suppose that a policeman or school teacher is likely to risk some kind of negative feedback rather than some guy on the internets. Now, given our ability to put words to things, even in anger and simple discontent, to hate x for something (any reason really) is not really anything like a crime as such. So I am subscribing to two sensible interpretations when 'hate', 'hating' or 'hated' is used. And these two interpretations or ways of understanding is nothing like the stupefying use of categories. 'Hate' never was and probably never will have a categorical meaning, where the word 'hate' is simply a denominator of an action of attitude, doing or simply an interpretation or condemnation. The attitude part is correct of course, but it would be silly to imply that one cannot or should not be angry with something. There is also something odd by the use of 'freedom' in our days, and it probably does not the same thing for every person. For example, it seem obvious that there is a difference in being free (to do something) and having so called 'freedom'. I am undoubtedly free to move about in my appartment as I wish and what is probably known as 'freedom' has nothing to do with this capacity of me moving about, unless one would argue that my very life is depending on society in not outright killing me (it would be absurd, and it would imply that a state or organization owns me like a slave). Pheu, this became a long text. The world/life is complicated and I see no reason to always trivialize it. So if I were to state that 'I hate this or that game' for whatever reason stated or otherwise, there probably is something to it, and I mean it would be wrong to categorically dismiss such an expression on the basis of some kind of hate crime. Apologies for mixing the notion of hate-crime with computer games, but I am really trying to make a point. In Norway, when one hate something, a common way to express this seem to be something of an understatement, where one would say 'I don't like it'. And I want to change that, at least personally. So far, it seem to me that people seem unable to grasp the nuances in the language, probably a result of the trivial use of words in the media the last 20 years or so. Or they just don't care. Maybe they simply have been thinking that I am complaining and that they don't have to listen or understand it because they think I simply intend to argue. It is really simple to deal with critisism. People ought to make points and they ought to explain. Both making points without explanation, and explaining something without making points is bad. Then it perhaps leads to a neverending argument of definitions and problematics of actualizations. I suppose some kind of ironic distance is healthy, but I really can't relate to things this way, and I don't want my newspapers to relate to people this way. Hehe, I would say that I hate the newspapers in Norway. They seem to practice shoddy journalism. I suppose frequent use of 'hate' is stupefying, but then again, what isn't stupefying when used over again and again categorically or generally. EDIT: I did not intend to start a discussion, but I just wanted to make a point. There are alot of issues that I could touch upon, but I just want to add here this link to a lecture class at Yale university (US) that ought to be inspiring. Introduction to theory of literature: Last edited by Decoman; 04-08-10 at 05:14 AM.

04-08-10, 05:04 AM	#3
DVAFP Watch Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 19 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I loathe them! I LOATHE them!!!!

04-08-10, 10:21 AM	#8
Westbroek Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: LA Posts: 256 Downloads: 121 Uploads: 0	I gotta go out on a limb here and say... I love this game. Flawed? perhaps.... buggy? certainly... patches on the way...mods on the upswing...more fun and more engrossing than either sh3 vanilla and sh4 vanilla all the way. I love this game and this community. 2 cents entered.

04-08-10, 10:35 AM	#9
Faamecanic Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Location: Off your Stb side with good solution Posts: 1,065 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	The comment I never see made is: Did the DEVS over promise to UBI KNOWING full well the budget and timeline? Or did UBI demand the DEVS make all these new features (directly by telling them to do it, or indirectly by making the DEVS feel they HAD to pitch all these new features to get funding from UBI)? Bottom line is one or BOTH are responsible for not using a level of sanity when proposing all these new (and possibly WONDERFUL if ever finished) addtions to the SH fanchise (ie the RPG element which I like, being able to move about in your sub). A wiser course of action would have been an improved graphics engine (I LOVE the water in SH5), FIX the bugs that were left over from SH3 and 4, and leave out all the other riff-raff that sucked up massive Dev time. Then BETA TEST with some of the gifted MODDERS from this forum, and release a game that was 90% bug free, AI that behaved as one would expect, and a sim that did not destroy immersion by being half done.

04-08-10, 01:20 PM	#13
OldFrenchy Mate Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 59 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	I finally broke down and purchased the game from a solid e-bay seller for $15.50. Hopefully it is legit. I would like to be able to make up my own mind on this debate over whether SH5 is 'Da Bomb!' or 'The Devil's Spawn!'. I have issues with DRM, but am willing to overlook them at this price and for what I perceive for the potential of this game. That being said, I think it is unfortunate to berate the Devs when any final commercial release is the result of a corporate decision. I applaud the devs in assisting the modders- good for them! It shows more than just a monetary interest in thier work. They obviously have a sincere interest in this subject, and the Subsim community. Ubisoft is like any other company. Profit is the bottom line. If DRM is going to be a sales killer, then hopefully they will figure it out and remove it like they did with some of their other games. As for further patching by UbiSoft of SH5 after patch #2, I doubt it, so please treat the devs with some respect and brotherhood. The game needs all the friends it can get!

04-08-10, 02:31 PM	#15
TheSatyr Captain Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 545 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I kinda blame the Devs more than Ubi for the state the game is in. I'm sure they signed a contract stating that the game would be ready for release on a specific date and for a specific budget. And if the game ISN'T ready by that date than Ubi doesn't have lot of choices: 1)Delay the release,and add more funding. (Not likely since this isn't an AAA title.) 2)Take the financial hit and cancel the project. (Which I'm glad they didn't do.) 3)Release "as is" and try to patch it up to what it was supposed to be. (Which is what they apparently chose to do.). I'm not trying to knock the Devs here,I just think they may have over reached on what they wanted to acomplish with the time and budget they had.