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Old 04-06-10, 06:53 PM   #1
John Channing
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>>"Do me a favor? Hop on over to the Falcon 4 forums and post that."

Why would I bother? It would be the cyber-equivalent of standing on the bowsprit at Flank Speed and relieving my bladder. Not only was the falcon series produced by an independant, private, and dedicated group of programmers (Specrtun Holobyte), but Falcon 4 is what it is now due only to years of extensive modding. Unless you (or they) expect a brand new F16 block c simulator that is more accurate...(which would be nearly impossible to accomplish for even the most heavily-funded studio)...it just ain't gonna happen for a while, as the original fits the current market quite nicely in it's current state. On the other hand, unless it IS that F16 alone that you are wishing for, LockOn was a very high-quality release that also had a high-fidelity model yet a different interpretation of how to present it. DCS:Black Shark is far, far beyond the fidelity and accuracy of any version of Falcon 4, and the upcoming DCS:A-10 (based on the original LOMAC) is no less stunning and again far beyond anything that came before. Someday, the Falcon forums can look forward to a new F16-only study simulation if that is what they want, but they will be waiting until the right developer comes along and the market can support it. It will happen, but not if people continue to to support half-finished arcade games.

>>"And if you think that Dangerous Waters was a successor to the Harpoon Series then you never played Harpoon"

If you are waiting for a direct, sequential replacement for a title, then you will never get one. Any independent developer is going to make their own interpretation of that they want to present. It would be foolish and juvenile to try to make a direct successor to any other developers' prior program. That is like making a paper mache statue of an old girlfriend, instead of just finding a new girlfriend. Also, Dangerous Waters was made by the same folks who made Fleet Command and is a newer title, which is why I chose it instead.

>>"every time I see somone trot that "independant producers will fill the void" line out I intend to challenge them to supply just one name. Just one"

Combat Mission was an independant developers answer to Microsoft's Close Combat series. Combat Mission also eventually gave rise to the Theatre of War series. I seriously doubt that anyone who has played Theatre of War:Kursk 1943 would ever again even consider going back to Microsoft Close Combat in any form.

Have patience, grasshopper...Computer Gaming is still in it's infancy, for better or for worse.
So, Great Master, allow me if you will to ask again the part of the question that your magnificent revelations seemed to overlook.

Where are the independent Sub-sim producers? What is the name?

Maybe they are all having a drink with East? Or Jamie? Or Carl?

JCC
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Old 04-06-10, 09:22 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by John Channing View Post
So, Great Master, allow me if you will to ask again the part of the question that your magnificent revelations seemed to overlook.

Where are the independent Sub-sim producers? What is the name?

Maybe they are all having a drink with East? Or Jamie? Or Carl?

JCC

Great Master? Hmmm, I like that! Thank you!! ...And henceforth, you may be my affectionate Little Grasshopper!



As for the independent Sub-sim producers...we do not need any right now. We really don't. There is no current shortage of submarine simulations, as is evidenced by the still highly popular SH3 and SH4. How many submarine simulations do you need anyway?

Should we all hold our collective breaths and pout until we get some guarantee that we will get a new sub-sim every couple of years? Perhaps it is this very expectation that has led to the demise of the study simulation. Why is it that you feel it is imperitave that someone else be working on something right now, for fear of never seeing a future sub-sim ever.

I got my first Nintendo Entertainment System for one thing: a simple game called Silent Service. That came out four years after I got essentially the same game for IBM PC in '85...except it had about 4 additional colors. At the time, it was cutting-edge software...far surpassing my PT109 on my Amiga or Tandy or Chinese Abacus or whatever I was using before. It was YEARS before another game came along, and up until that time, I was happy. Ubisoft did not even exist at that time...and did I care? No! because I did not have a time machine to tell me that down the pike would be greats like Aces of the Deep, Silent Service II, Das Boot, Great Naval Battles, and some obscure subsim by an upstart company that nobody had ever heard of called Aeon Electronic Entertainment and published by a company that no longer exists called Strategic Simulations (SSI). That subsim was Silent Hunter, and at the time the great and powerful OZ that we refer to as Ubisoft was little more than a distribution warehouse in France with no products of its own.


Who is to say what upstart company is waiting out there to make the next generation of sub simulations? Perhaps the future CEO is starting high school next year...or maybe he is learning his ABC's. Maybe he is a retired sailor who is attending his fathers funeral next week...a father who served on a fleetboat or planted a seed of honor on his son that may someday grow into the simulation that we all wish for. All unlikely, but the point is that we do not know any more than I knew about SH3 or GWX back in 1985 and 1989.





Patience, my little grasshopper, patience...


SH3 and SH4 have many years left in them, as may SH5 if all works out. What happens after that is anyones guess, but history has shown that it will be likely better than anything before if done by a new and motivated publisher/developer, and likely it will be very very different than what you or I can even imagine right now.



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Old 04-06-10, 11:04 PM   #3
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Good points Placoderm. People need to get a little perspective, Ubisoft is not the end-all be-all of subsims.
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Old 04-06-10, 11:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Placoderm View Post
Who is to say what upstart company is waiting out there to make the next generation of sub simulations? Perhaps the future CEO is starting high school next year...or maybe he is learning his ABC's. Maybe he is a retired sailor who is attending his fathers funeral next week...a father who served on a fleetboat or planted a seed of honor on his son that may someday grow into the simulation that we all wish for.

Maybe, he/she is reading this thread right now.
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Old 04-07-10, 12:04 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Placoderm View Post
Great Master? Hmmm, I like that! Thank you!! ...And henceforth, you may be my affectionate Little Grasshopper!



As for the independent Sub-sim producers...we do not need any right now. We really don't. There is no current shortage of submarine simulations, as is evidenced by the still highly popular SH3 and SH4. How many submarine simulations do you need anyway?
Speak for yourself, mate. That's your opinion, I would be quite happy with a new subsim every year.
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Old 04-07-10, 02:04 AM   #6
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It is pathetic game from the day one:

Simulation community should swallow arcade RPG, DRM, 40% finished product, boring campaign, support the brand with they money...etc.

...and Ubi ?

What steps UBi displayed so far or announced as next ?

For mutual "love and support" - it takes two sides...

Ubi made a commercial product for mass-gaming instead of simulation... OK. Fair enaugh - so enjoy your sales results...

***
You don't have to serve sim community... but please show some respect to people who kept SH brand for ten years.
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Old 04-07-10, 09:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriatico View Post
It is pathetic game from the day one:

Simulation community should swallow arcade RPG, DRM, 40% finished product, boring campaign, support the brand with they money...etc.

...and Ubi ?

What steps UBi displayed so far or announced as next ?

For mutual "love and support" - it takes two sides...

Ubi made a commercial product for mass-gaming instead of simulation... OK. Fair enaugh - so enjoy your sales results...

***
You don't have to serve sim community... but please show some respect to people who kept SH brand for ten years.
Do you even own it?

Because if you do, and you have played it for more than an hour, than I really can't understand your comments.

JCC
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Old 04-07-10, 12:14 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by John Channing View Post
Do you even own it?

Because if you do, and you have played it for more than an hour, than I really can't understand your comments.

JCC
Dear Moderator,

If there is anything concluded (so far) about this game - it is lack of immersion, unfinnished product, arcade gameply, u-boat captain running from station to station (?) ... i.e. there are two main groups of people "that own":
- nice graphics keep people playing
- angry people that regret preorder

Did You ask PC IGN if they have the game ?
Did You ask game experts that rated the game from 20% - 50.5% if they have a game ?
Is it a lay that Ubi - pushed DRM into mouth of sim community (pirats ?) that kept alive SH series for a years and years... ?
Is it a lay that Ubi released commercial & unfinished product that - sim community should mod and convert into simulator ?
Did You ask yourself - where are all these famous "long term" names of Subsim that are not even playing "this" - let alone moding it or participating SH5 forum ?
( I understand them more and more... )

I understand that You must "preserve" the only future subsim game as core of Subsim site - but it is, after last 3-4 weeks facts, a real question... WHAT is new, untrue, or surprising for You as moderator in this "game impressions summary" ?
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Old 04-07-10, 12:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Adriatico View Post
Dear Moderator,

If there is anything concluded (so far) about this game - it is lack of immersion, unfinnished product, arcade gameply, u-boat captain running from station to station (?) ... i.e. there are two main groups of people "that own":
- nice graphics keep people playing
- angry people that regret preorder

Did You ask PC IGN if they have the game ?
Did You ask game experts that rated the game from 20% - 50.5% if they have a game ?
Is it a lay that Ubi - pushed DRM into mouth of sim community (pirats ?) that kept alive SH series for a years and years... ?
Is it a lay that Ubi released commercial & unfinished product that - sim community should mod and convert into simulator ?
Did You ask yourself - where are all these famous "long term" names of Subsim that are not even playing "this" - let alone moding it or participating SH5 forum ?
( I understand them more and more... )

I understand that You must "preserve" the only future subsim game as core of Subsim site - but it is, after last 3-4 weeks facts, a real question... WHAT is new, untrue, or surprising for You as moderator in this "game impressions summary" ?
ummmmmm... yeah.

Was the answer to my question anywhere in there? Because if it is, I can't find it.

JCC
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Old 04-07-10, 12:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriatico View Post
Dear Moderator,

If there is anything concluded (so far) about this game - it is lack of immersion, unfinnished product, arcade gameply, u-boat captain running from station to station (?) ... i.e. there are two main groups of people "that own":
- nice graphics keep people playing
- angry people that regret preorder
I'm sorry mate but you don't speak for me.

I own the game and I play it because I enjoy playing it - and thats it in a nutshell.
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Old 04-07-10, 12:40 PM   #11
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I hope you don't mind but as a game owner I'm gonna take you up on some of your other points too


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriatico View Post
Dear Moderator,

If there is anything concluded (so far) about this game - it is lack of immersion I have no problem with immersion - no worse than SHIII, unfinnished product Agree, arcade gameply disagree - no worse than vanilla SHIII, u-boat captain running from station to station Not had to run anywhere yet - which is just as well as my machine is laggy as hell inside the sub (?) ... i.e. there are two main groups of people "that own":
- nice graphics keep people playing
- angry people that regret preorder I've covered that


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Old 04-07-10, 12:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriatico View Post
It is pathetic game from the day one:

Simulation community should swallow arcade RPG, DRM, 40% finished product, boring campaign, support the brand with they money...etc.

...and Ubi ?

What steps UBi displayed so far or announced as next ?

For mutual "love and support" - it takes two sides...

Ubi made a commercial product for mass-gaming instead of simulation... OK. Fair enaugh - so enjoy your sales results...

***
You don't have to serve sim community... but please show some respect to people who kept SH brand for ten years.
Adriatico, your post is just hyperbole.

SH5 is a subsim. It is not any more "arcade" than SH3 or 4. The RPG type "skills" need some work, but I would not say that is a major issue.

It is finished since all the elements you expect in a subsim are there, i.e. working sub, single missions, campaign. It has a certain amount of bugs/issues, about on the same level as SH3/4 when they came out.

Boring campaign? It is the same type of campaign as in SH3/4, i.e., go there, sink ships, some back alive.

DRM? well no one likes DRM, but that has nothing to do with the underlying simulation.

If you want to dismiss SH5 out of hand without even trying it out, that is your choice, but don't masquerade your post as a statement of fact.
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Old 04-07-10, 03:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriatico View Post
It is pathetic game from the day one:

Simulation community should swallow arcade RPG, DRM, 40% finished product, boring campaign, support the brand with they money...etc.

...and Ubi ?

What steps UBi displayed so far or announced as next ?

For mutual "love and support" - it takes two sides...

Ubi made a commercial product for mass-gaming instead of simulation... OK. Fair enaugh - so enjoy your sales results...

***
You don't have to serve sim community... but please show some respect to people who kept SH brand for ten years.
ditto to Neal & Bilge Rat. some of you complainers sound like you've spent a whole 1/2 hour in the game. talk about instant gratifcation. did it ever occur to you that part of the game IS discovering how to do (or earn) certain features?
maybe you'd be happier with some 5 minute goal on the X-box.

p.s. "Fair enaugh". excuse me, but your education is showing...
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Old 04-07-10, 02:28 AM   #14
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Speak for yourself, mate. That's your opinion, I would be quite happy with a new subsim every year.
My opinions are always only my own, Neal. My wife reminds me of that constantly...

And I, too, would be quite happy with a new subsim every year (as I would a new Ferarri, a new airplane, or a new house up in the Rockies), but I am also realistic enough to know that it probably won't happen...and so I am happy with what I do have now in SH3 and SH4. SH5 is gorgeous and fresh and inviting...but, much like dating a beautiful and sexy young woman with cronic flatulence, I am drawn to her but just cannot bear to spend much time alone with her.

Thankfully, that too is just my own opinion...




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...And all was good.

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Old 04-07-10, 09:23 AM   #15
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Who is to say what upstart company is waiting out there to make the next generation of sub simulations? Perhaps the future CEO is starting high school next year...or maybe he is learning his ABC's. Maybe he is a retired sailor who is attending his fathers funeral next week...a father who served on a fleetboat or planted a seed of honor on his son that may someday grow into the simulation that we all wish for.
While waiting for these I would also recommend keeping a sharp eye out for flying pigs .

JCC
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