Lost and Found

[Gabucino]

Originally Posted by SabreHawk

Ok just what does this statement have to do with this thread?

Easy. The OP expressed how he wishes allied forces to be remembered as the bringers of freedom.

Well, here in the Axis countries (Hungary to be precise), the allied armies/airforce did not bring any of the aforementioned freedom, but instead unleashed previously unknown destruction, misery, mass murders, communist governments, terrorist state police.

History is codified by law even nowadays. Even the UK has a law that war crimes could only have been commited by Germany.

I have no problem with respecting worthy opponents, but freedom?.. We have far less of it since the end of World War 2.

[SabreHawk]

Originally Posted by Gabucino

Easy. The OP expressed how he wishes allied forces to be remembered as the bringers of freedom.

Well, here in the Axis countries (Hungary to be precise), the allied armies/airforce did not bring any of the aforementioned freedom, but instead unleashed previously unknown destruction, misery, mass murders, communist governments, terrorist state police.

History is codified by law even nowadays. Even the UK has a law that war crimes could only have been commited by Germany.

I have no problem with respecting worthy opponents, but freedom?.. We have far less of it since the end of World War 2.

Whatever...........

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Gabucino

Easy. The OP expressed how he wishes allied forces to be remembered as the bringers of freedom.

Well, here in the Axis countries (Hungary to be precise), the allied armies/airforce did not bring any of the aforementioned freedom, but instead unleashed previously unknown destruction, misery, mass murders, communist governments, terrorist state police.

History is codified by law even nowadays. Even the UK has a law that war crimes could only have been commited by Germany.

I have no problem with respecting worthy opponents, but freedom?.. We have far less of it since the end of World War 2.

Alright, so going back to 'the truth' weren't there approx 550,000 Hungarian Jews murdered up to 1944? Exactly what level of 'previsously unknown misery, mass murder' etcetera was delivered by the allied forces? Because it must have had one hell of an impact to eclipse Hungary's contribution to the attempted extermination of the Jews? Unless you weren't counting the whole holocaust thing.

[Gabucino]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Alright, so going back to 'the truth' weren't there approx 550,000 Hungarian Jews murdered up to 1944?

"Up to"? If you knew even a little bit about history, you'd have used the word "from". Hungary was the last shelter of the askenazim.

I'm not even sure what do you want to accomplish by reciting holocaust laws here. I was referring to Hungary, not Israel.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Alright, so going back to 'the truth' weren't there approx 550,000 Hungarian Jews murdered up to 1944? Exactly what level of 'previsously unknown misery, mass murder' etcetera was delivered by the allied forces? Because it must have had one hell of an impact to eclipse Hungary's contribution to the attempted extermination of the Jews? Unless you weren't counting the whole holocaust thing.

I think he meant either allied air raids for example destruction of Dresden or ending up to be Soviet puppet state. Soviet Union was one of allied countries don't forget that.

EDIT: Great I'm repeating things allready well know. I really should go to sleep a little bit.

[Gabucino]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

I think he meant either allied air raids for example destruction of Dresden or ending up to be Soviet puppet state. Soviet Union was one of allied countries don't forget that.

That, and for example the fact that after the war, one of Hungary's first international aid requests were several hundred thousands of abortion pills.

Thanks for "liberation" and "freedom", sure.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Gabucino

That, and for example the fact that after the war, one of Hungary's first international aid requests were several hundred thousands of abortion pills.

Thanks for "liberation" and "freedom", sure.

Abortion pills? Wow! I couldn't even imagine any more urgent need...

[DarkFolle]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

Abortion pills? Wow! I couldn't even imagine any more urgent need...

This is because u don't use ur mind. Think about all the raped women, during and....after war.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Gabucino

I'm not even sure what do you want to accomplish by reciting holocaust laws here. I was referring to Hungary, not Israel.

I see you editted your post, so I have also editted my post. Your original 'QED' meant nothing. What laws are you talking about that I recited?

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

I think he meant either allied air raids for example destruction of Dresden or ending up to be Soviet puppet state. Soviet Union was one of allied countries don't forget that.

If he wants to say that, he can, but he hasn't yet. I was just saying that Hungary wasn't a free and liberal place, depending on who you were. As I clearly don't know anything about history, I am still unclear what it was that unleashed previously unknown levels of mass murder in Hungary. He seems to be saying that Hungary was a happy la-la-land for all right up until the allies 'freed' them.

[Gabucino]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

If he wants to say that, he can, but he hasn't yet.

"Well, here in the Axis countries (Hungary to be precise), the allied armies/airforce did not bring any of the aforementioned freedom, but instead unleashed previously unknown destruction, misery, mass murders, communist governments, terrorist state police."

Did I not?

I was just saying that Hungary wasn't a free and liberal place, depending on who you were.

Huh? The world never was an universally free and liberal place, it is not, and it will never be. On the other hand, Hungary was a prospering democratic republic. She has rebuilt herself since the "democratic", then communist revolutionary government demobilized our army and invited our war enemies to take 2/3 of our territory. They were convicted of high treason (in their absence, as they fled the country with all the money from the National Bank) from 1920-1945. Today, they are revered heroes.

Even the jews of Europe immigrated here because Hungary was the only country on the continent that which welcomed them despite the the aforementioned communist terror government of 1918 which almost completely consisted of them. If this was not a liberal country, then there wasn't any. There wasn't even any atrocities until Germany effectively annexed us in 1944. Regent Horthy wasn't even tried in Nuremberg due to Stalin's express request!

Then came the freedom-bearer allies, who changed our island of peace into a soviet puppet state, with lasting effects.

Did you know about the 1956 hungarian rebellion? Did you know that the current (2006-2010) government still ("...Of the past let us wipe the slate clean...")? Did you know that I am on the police counter-terrorism department's watch list just because I'm acquinted with an independent newspaper's crew? (I've seen the papers for it, let's not get into how) Did you know that we have a law that codifies that the hungarian soviet state police (ÁVO) never commited murders, tortures, and cruel interrogations? Did you know that this law was conveniently enacted when a victim recognized one of his torturers, and wanted to put him before the law?

Exactly how are we living in a more free/liberal country?.. (Sidenote: the liberal party is on 1% popularity according to the current census. This is how the voting people rate their mischiefs.)

As I clearly don't know anything about history, I am still unclear what it was that unleashed previously unknown levels of mass murder in Hungary.

I dunno, maybe the red army?.. These doctrines were officially spread on the front, and hungarians were treated no differently than germans.

He seems to be saying that Hungary was a happy la-la-land for all right up until the allies 'freed' them.

I do. You could beg to differ, but I probably know a bit more about my country than you do, if you don't mind me... or let's skip this discussion altogether, there's no point in arguing here. For us, every U-boot sunk meant a thousand civilians who directly suffered the soviet-allied terror/freedom.

[Nemesis43]

Life under pan-european national socialism would have been no picnic either, you know.
The western allied powers weren't politically able to claim all of Europe when the Soviet Union had played such an instrumental part in defeating Nazi Germany. Insisting on it might well have led to more war, and that would truly have been ugly and quite possibly nuclear.
It was a very unfortunate outcome for eastern Europe as a whole, of which most had a considerably harder time than Hungary. The exception was, of course, the uprising in 1956. Had other eastern-bloc countries tried the same, they would have fared no better.
The unpleasant fact remains that, during the war, Hungary did help to deport a great many jews. It, like many other countries, had fascist tendencies at the time, and antisemitism/racism was widespread. It's still around today, mostly slumbering just beneath the surface.
In Hungary, it's currently the gypsy population that bears the brunt of it, but there is still also quite a bit of antisemitism.

Links for your perusal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungari...ocialist_Party
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_Cross_Party
and something much more recent (2007-2009):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyar_Garda
and some pictures of them:
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/...Xl13V/610x.jpg
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,952214,00.jpg
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/images/jobbik.jpg
and their backers, who are still a legitimate political party today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik
http://thefastertimes.com/protofasci...__470x3580.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/...7Pgvp/610x.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JobbikPlakat2009.jpg
(election poster featuring the slogan "Hungary belongs to Hungarians")

[Gabucino]

Originally Posted by Nemesis43

Life under pan-european national socialism would have been no picnic either, you know.

National Socialism was banned in Hungary until the German occupation.

The western allied powers weren't politically able to claim all of Europe when the Soviet Union had played such an instrumental part in defeating Nazi Germany.

Not that they wanted to. In 1932, Stalin created the Holodomor. Ten million ukranians have starved to death due to the state-organized famine and during the freezing winter. Next thing you know, the "western" allies ignore the fact that their mass-murdering friend state invades an allies member (Poland). In fact, to express their gratitude they create the Murmansk convoy, supplying this murderous communist democracy (as it was called).

It was a very unfortunate outcome for eastern Europe as a whole

Agreed, that's what I wrote.

In Hungary, it's currently the gypsy population that bears the brunt of it

It is very unfortunate that foreign news agencies are fed these lies (by Viktoria Mohácsi, a gypsy who is a member of the post-communist government, and also Veronika Munk, whose irreal articles have caused great outrage). Reality:

- the gypsy mafia of Ózd holding dog fights

- the last old hungarian lady in a now gypsy village has been brutally murdered, bones broken, left for dead. Two gypsy murderers, 14 and 11 years old. These murders are so common that they are hardly treated as news nowadays.

- the gypsy mafia, during a routine fight in a bar (they do that so the owner will have to pay protection money) killed two members of the hungarian handball team. They were surrounded, then knifed until they went to the ground. Then they throats were slit. The murderers were let out of prison. They instantly held a "prison release party". Local people said: "the terror came back to our village".

- gypsies brutally murdered (english language) a hungarian teacher, while threatening his daughters with rape. The memorial of the event is being used as a garbage dump by the murderers' family.

- they sabotage the train traffic by stealing cables. Daily. These are classified as common "theft" by the lawmakers instead of terrorism. And don't even get me started on the mass-scale illegal woodcutting of forests.

6 gypsies were killed by hate crime, all by the same party. Contrary to the events I mentioned, this case was widely publicized. The fact that one of the culprits was a member of the hungarian secret service - was not. In short: government orchestrated hate crimes, sold abroad to validate the massive police buildup, and the crippling of free-speech laws.

The Guard that you linked has never been associated with agressive acts against minorities (most hungarians would say: unfortunately). We are on the brink of open hostilities, thanks to the gypsies whose slogan is: "kill the hungarian".

I am very sorry, but foreign news agencies only copy the lies of the government propaganda. But I'll say what I always do: don't believe me - check for yourself.