Aircraft at night ?

[sdflyer]

Whats wrong with flying at night? Clear nights are perfect for flying! What is not realistic ?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by sdflyer

Whats wrong with flying at night? Clear nights are perfect for flying! What is not realistic ?

Well flying itself is not. Problem is that there is no point in it. How are you supposed to find lonely u-boat in darkness? That is hard even in good conditions.

EDIT: Modified to more appropriate approach

[sdflyer]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

Well flying itself is not. Problem is that there is no point in it. How are you supposed to find lonely u-boat in darkness? That is hard even in good conditions.

EDIT: Modified to more appropriate approach

In a clear full moon night it's quite possible. The other question I'm for example a Hurricane pilot searching for the enemy bombers why would I care about submarine which I can't even identify from altitude. For the most part I would just report it unless radio silence order has been issued ..

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by sdflyer

Whats wrong with flying at night? Clear nights are perfect for flying! What is not realistic ?

Perhaps the fact that you are unlikely to spot anything as small as a submarine, even on a clear night. Hence the reason why submarines recharged their batteries during the night.

[sdflyer]

Originally Posted by Nordmann

Perhaps the fact that you are unlikely to spot anything as small as a submarine, even on a clear night. Hence the reason why submarines recharged their batteries during the night.

Actually it depends on altitude and purpose of the flight . If my flight was specifically dispatch to search for a submarine I would have few extra crew members with binoculars looking for enemy submarines. That would increase chance of finding them .

During WWII there were a lot of cases when fighter searching for the t enemy bombers (during clear full moon nights). If it possible to find a small bomber at night then it is possible to find a submarine.

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by sdflyer

Actually it depends on altitude and purpose of the flight . If my flight was specifically dispatch to search for a submarine I would have few extra crew members with binoculars looking for enemy submarines. That would increase chance of finding them .

During WWII there were a lot of cases when fighter searching for the t enemy bombers (during clear full moon nights). If it possible to find a small bomber at night then it is possible to find a submarine.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying that your chances are not as good as they would be during daylight hours. Especially early war, when planes and ASW equipment were lacking in all departments.

[Heibges]

I think it would be impossible for an airplane without radar to find a submarine at night unless the sureface of the ocean was like glass, and then it would be 99.999% impossible.

[sdflyer]

Originally Posted by Heibges

I think it would be impossible for an airplane without radar to find a submarine at night unless the sureface of the ocean was like glass, and then it would be 99.999% impossible.

I was talking about full moon and clear weather. Moon actually highlights landmarks pretty good. From my personal experience I'd day that probability of finding submarine (given extra crew member for searching and relatively low altitude) would be much higher than above

[gmccabe01]

From experience you can see the wake of a ship sparkle(flourescent)
for a mile or more on a fine moonlit night(no clouds ect)

[DelphiUniverse]

Originally Posted by Heibges

I think it would be impossible for an airplane without radar to find a submarine at night unless the sureface of the ocean was like glass, and then it would be 99.999% impossible.

It is possible when you fly low, the tower of the u-boat is visible on the horizon. But the main goal of flying night missions is to have a continous blockade. You can't stop patrolling just because it's night. There is the need to fly to watch out for other types of bigger warships.

[walsh2509]

Early air-to-surface radar sets, namely the ASV Mk. II, had a fairly long minimum detection range. Thus as the aircraft approached the target, it would disappear off the radar at a range that was too great to allow it to be seen by eye at night without some form of illumination. At first aircraft solved this problem by dropping flares to light up the area, but since the flare only lit up the area directly under the aircraft, a string would have to be dropped until the submarine was spotted. Once it was spotted the aircraft would have to circle back to attack, the entire process giving the submarine a fair amount of time to dive out of danger.
Eventually time delayed flares were developed that allowed the attacking plane time to circle. The flare was fired into the air from a buoy previously dropped by the plane. The surfaced submarine could then be seen in silhouette as the plane approached.
Wing Commander Humphrey de Verd Leigh, an RAF personnel officer, came up with his own solution after chatting with returning air crew. This was to mount a searchlight under the aircraft, pointed forward and allowing the submarine to be spotted as soon as it was turned on. He then developed the Leigh light entirely off his own bat, in secret and without official sanction - even the Air Ministry were unaware of its development until shown the completed prototype.[2] At first it was difficult to fit on aircraft due to its size. Leigh persisted in his efforts to test the idea, and garnered the support of the Commander-in-Chief of Coastal Command, Sir Frederick Bowhill. In March 1941 a Vickers Wellington DWI that conveniently already had the necessary generator on board, (it had been used for anti-magnetic mining operations using a large electromagnet) was modified with a retractable "dustbin" holding the lamp, and proved the concept sound.
At this point the Air Ministry decided that the idea was worthwhile, but that they should instead use the Turbinlite, a less effective system which had been originally developed as an aid for nighttime bomber interception. After trials they too eventually decided to use Leigh's system, but it was not until mid-1942 that aircraft started being modified to carry it.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by walsh2509

Early air-to-surface radar sets, namely the ASV Mk. II, had a fairly long minimum detection range. Thus as the aircraft approached the target, it would disappear off the radar at a range that was too great to allow it to be seen by eye at night without some form of illumination. At first aircraft solved this problem by dropping flares to light up the area, but since the flare only lit up the area directly under the aircraft, a string would have to be dropped until the submarine was spotted. Once it was spotted the aircraft would have to circle back to attack, the entire process giving the submarine a fair amount of time to dive out of danger.
Eventually time delayed flares were developed that allowed the attacking plane time to circle. The flare was fired into the air from a buoy previously dropped by the plane. The surfaced submarine could then be seen in silhouette as the plane approached.
Wing Commander Humphrey de Verd Leigh, an RAF personnel officer, came up with his own solution after chatting with returning air crew. This was to mount a searchlight under the aircraft, pointed forward and allowing the submarine to be spotted as soon as it was turned on. He then developed the Leigh light entirely off his own bat, in secret and without official sanction - even the Air Ministry were unaware of its development until shown the completed prototype.[2] At first it was difficult to fit on aircraft due to its size. Leigh persisted in his efforts to test the idea, and garnered the support of the Commander-in-Chief of Coastal Command, Sir Frederick Bowhill. In March 1941 a Vickers Wellington DWI that conveniently already had the necessary generator on board, (it had been used for anti-magnetic mining operations using a large electromagnet) was modified with a retractable "dustbin" holding the lamp, and proved the concept sound.
At this point the Air Ministry decided that the idea was worthwhile, but that they should instead use the Turbinlite, a less effective system which had been originally developed as an aid for nighttime bomber interception. After trials they too eventually decided to use Leigh's system, but it was not until mid-1942 that aircraft started being modified to carry it.

Thanks for good answer!

Did I get it correctly that those radar and light sets started to appear around 1941 onwards?