Sales of SH 5

[Skybird]

I know a guy who works in the pc department of a major electronics chain store here in Germany, Saturn, which is quite big. Last week he told me that SH5 lies like lead on their shelves. they had a good start on the first 2 days, then suddenly customers stayed away. He said that sales go bad in another Saturn store, too, and also in the one Media market we have here (Saturn and Media belong to the same corporation).

At German Amazon, price already dropped by 30% a longer time ago now, I think already in the second week.

[Coldcall]

Guys,

The best thing that could happen is that SH5 sales are such a huge nightmare that Ubisoft decide not to continue with the franchise.

My view is that Ubisoft has had too many chances to get it right, and that they keep getting it so wrong is an indication that they could not really care less about SH franchise.

I hope and pray that they have a tantrum over sales and say they wont produce another.

There are plenty of excellent smaller developers who could produce as good or better as any SH title ever released.

Ubisoft are not the only game in town, and a decent sub simulator has a guaranteed 200,000 sales plus worldwide which is more than enough for a strong 2 year dev process, and still a large profit margin thereafter.

[alexradu89]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

Guys,

The best thing that could happen is that SH5 sales are such a huge nightmare that Ubisoft decide not to continue with the franchise.

My view is that Ubisoft has had too many chances to get it right, and that they keep getting it so wrong is an indication that they could not really care less about SH franchise.

I hope and pray that they have a tantrum over sales and say they wont produce another.

There are plenty of excellent smaller developers who could produce as good or better as any SH title ever released.

Ubisoft are not the only game in town, and a decent sub simulator has a guaranteed 200,000 sales plus worldwide which is more than enough for a strong 2 year dev process, and still a large profit margin thereafter.

We have such absolutely talented people here that we could do our own game, and have EVERYONE contribute (like a real crew). Just my opinion.If the SH3 game engine (and everything regarding SH3) would be freeware and usable to everyone it would be so awesome.

[Castout]

I probably never going to buy it even if it hadn't come with the stupid DRM. Another flop. Not going to burn my money in that. Not worth playing imo.

Torpedo los! and it was sunk!

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by alexradu89

We have such absolutely talented people here that we could do our own game, and have EVERYONE contribute (like a real crew). Just my opinion.If the SH3 game engine (and everything regarding SH3) would be freeware and usable to everyone it would be so awesome.

The SH modders are great but a proper *finnished* submarine simulator with SH5 graphics would need commercial ambitions.

Artists and developers need to be paid for their work, so they arent worried about paying rent cheques etc...The job needs to be done professionally. But with a $10million (conservativley) market per release that should not be a problem for a smller developer that isnt more concerned about their big populist titles. This is the problem with UBI and SH. For Ubi, SH is a minor title.

[captainprid]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

Guys,

The best thing that could happen is that SH5 sales are such a huge nightmare that Ubisoft decide not to continue with the franchise.

My view is that Ubisoft has had too many chances to get it right, and that they keep getting it so wrong is an indication that they could not really care less about SH franchise.

I hope and pray that they have a tantrum over sales and say they wont produce another.

There are plenty of excellent smaller developers who could produce as good or better as any SH title ever released.

Ubisoft are not the only game in town, and a decent sub simulator has a guaranteed 200,000 sales plus worldwide which is more than enough for a strong 2 year dev process, and still a large profit margin thereafter.

I think maybe that is a little harsh. Agreed there are other companies out there capable of making an improved version of SH but none seem to be too enthusiastic about doing so. A new game would require an entirely new engine as UBI are unlikely to want to release theirs, so whereas a SHVI could be done relatively cheaply, a new developer would have to spend big bucks devloping a new engine.

I also feel that UBI have shot themselves in the foot here. Like a previous poster said, no info about a patch is imminent. Perhaps if they had held their hands up and said the game is bugged but we are working to resolve these issues, more people may well have bought it.

The end of Silent Hunter, I really hope not!!! The whole series has been bugged to some extent but with the modders on here and patches from UBI, they have all become amazing games and the genre leaders

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by captainprid

I think maybe that is a little harsh. Agreed there are other companies out there capable of making an improved version of SH but none seem to be too enthusiastic about doing so. A new game would require an entirely new engine as UBI are unlikely to want to release theirs, so whereas a SHVI could be done relatively cheaply, a new developer would have to spend big bucks devloping a new engine.

I also feel that UBI have shot themselves in the foot here. Like a previous poster said, no info about a patch is imminent. Perhaps if they had held their hands up and said the game is bugged but we are working to resolve these issues, more people may well have bought it.

The end of Silent Hunter, I really hope not!!! The whole series has been bugged to some extent but with the modders on here and patches from UBI, they have all become amazing games and the genre leaders

SH franchise has been the submarine sim leader because there is no-one else doing commercial subsims since early 2000. Look at all the subsims in the 80s/90s. Its a popular genre and Ubisoft have had it all to themselves for almost a decade now.

Personally i see Ubisoft as a hindrance to the future of the subsim market. By releasing a new title every 2/3 years they are sort of stifling the potential of a competitive title. Especially because sales figures for SH5 could indicate to some that no-one wants to play a subsim, when actually there is a large dedicated market worth millions of dollars but Ubi's incompetence has made it look unprofitable.

Their CEo has a habit of using the most outragoeus justifications for why a certain title did not sell well.

I'd much prefer a subsim title being in the hands of a smaller dedicated developer.

[Méo]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

SBy releasing a new title every 2/3 years they are sort of stifling the potential of a competitive title.

Ok, if I understand:

- If a company release a really good and sharp product, a competitor won't dare trying.

- If a company release an unfinished and buggy product, a competitor won't dare neither...

[GFC Christian]

Originally Posted by Méo

Ok, if I understand:

- If a company release a really good and sharp product, a competitor won't dare trying.

- If a company release an unfinished and buggy product, a competitor won't dare neither...

Which competitor ?

[John Channing]

Coldcall your arguement overlooks the fact that most developers have gotten out of simulations all together. The exception is Oleg, but he is self financed. Other than that... nada. Add to that the fact that there have been several experienced independent developers that have actually started developing Subsims (Akula: Red Hunter anyone?) and then threw in the towel when they ran out of funding.

Subsims like Ubisoft are incredibly complex, expensive simulations to develop from scratch. The reason the Silent Hunter series makes some sense financially is that most of the code is already done and paid for so the development time is shorter than if you were building it from a blank C++ screen. And on the plus side, you have experienced developers who have a passion for Sub-sims involved.

So... if you know of a self-financed, independent, experienced developer with oodles of money that has a passion for WW2 Subs then point them out to me, cuz I sure as heck can't find any.

JCC

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by Méo

Ok, if I understand:

- If a company release a really good and sharp product, a competitor won't dare trying.

- If a company release an unfinished and buggy product, a competitor won't dare neither...

If they released an excellent product, and the market could absorb a second title, then another developer might try a competitive subsim. However if Ubisoft were releasing excellent product then there might not be such a need from the community itself.

However as it stands today, your first scenario is a pipedream :-) If only...

The reason Ubi is stifling the market is because they can keep releasing half-arsed SH games because they have immense development resources, economies of scale etc..They can hedge their games portfolio because they have so many titles.

[Wurschtie]

I am quite certain that the major problem is the lack of business competition. I believe Ubisoft was able to get a bit lazy about SH, because players do not have any games to go to as an alternative.

From a marketing point of view, this leads to the conclusion that SH5 is not more than a second class cash cow, in a dying genre.

As a long time flight simulator enthusiast, I would even say that simulations themselves are a dying genre. Even Microsoft closed the aces studios, which were responsible for nearly every MSFS of the last two decades (which is not really the end of the world, because the MSFS series has a product life cycle of about 5-10 years). That is mainly because playing habits of the masses change from enthusiasts (as known from the early amiga and commodore days) to casual console gamers. In order to persist, it is crucial for a studio to have mega-selling titles like Assassin's Creed for the kiddie gaming generation, which likes to play GTA and stuff like that. Sims like SH5 are not an obligation, but more like an accessory and a question of image. And sure as hell Ubisoft is not coming out of this mess near zero, but with a big fat red minus at the end of the day. And this estimation does not even consider the negative effects on Ubisoft's image as a publisher in whole.

Silent Hunter was, unfortunately, one big fail. It was a communication fail in the first place. It is simply impossible to create a product which has such a high-involvement character as SH5 without asking or talking to the community. And chances are, that this will be the end of a whole genre, unless some studio (or even Ubisoft) is brave enough to do better (which is easy), or the community continues to maintain and mod the sh* out of this game and keep it alive, to prove that there still IS a market for sub sims. Without wanting to meet the trouble halfway, I am not really confident about the will of Ubisoft to keep trying to ride a dead horse.

IF (!) this game is dying in the arms of ubisoft, we can only hope that it will be given away at some point in time to a studio that dares to pay a license and continue the beloved stuff in the means of the community.

I agree to Méo that this is kind of a dilemma

@christian: the potential one

[Méo]

Originally Posted by Wurschtie

@christian: the potential one

Exactly!

[Faamecanic]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

Guys,

The best thing that could happen is that SH5 sales are such a huge nightmare that Ubisoft decide not to continue with the franchise.

My view is that Ubisoft has had too many chances to get it right, and that they keep getting it so wrong is an indication that they could not really care less about SH franchise.

I hope and pray that they have a tantrum over sales and say they wont produce another.

There are plenty of excellent smaller developers who could produce as good or better as any SH title ever released.

Ubisoft are not the only game in town, and a decent sub simulator has a guaranteed 200,000 sales plus worldwide which is more than enough for a strong 2 year dev process, and still a large profit margin thereafter.

It is my hope the Devs in Romania get released from UBISTANK and get with a GOOD niche market publisher (remember the SSI of old guys) and live their dream of developing a Silent Hunter that ALL can be proud of.

Without a doubt, if the devs had more budget and another 6 months to a year on SH5 it would have been a thing of BEAUTY.

In fact.... why didnt UBI have any beta testers....this would have elminated 90% of the bugs before release?? Is it Ubi's policy to NOT beta test? Such a shame as this community is not only full of subsim experts...but modders that UNDERSTAND the code and when things work as they should or not. And some of the BIG mod developers have PROVEN they can keep their mouth shut (GWX folks were great at keeping us guessing to the end) Why not tap that level love/dedication/devotion?

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

Guys,

The best thing that could happen is that SH5 sales are such a huge nightmare that Ubisoft decide not to continue with the franchise.

My view is that Ubisoft has had too many chances to get it right, and that they keep getting it so wrong is an indication that they could not really care less about SH franchise.

I hope and pray that they have a tantrum over sales and say they wont produce another.

There are plenty of excellent smaller developers who could produce as good or better as any SH title ever released.

Ubisoft are not the only game in town, and a decent sub simulator has a guaranteed 200,000 sales plus worldwide which is more than enough for a strong 2 year dev process, and still a large profit margin thereafter.

There are excellent smaller developers out there, but I doubt very much any of them can make an AAA title like Silent Hunter that will match our expectations. Even before Ubisoft took over the SH series, there has only been one game that rose to the level of SH: Aces of the Deep. And Sierra, even with the crack Dynamix dev team ready to make a sequel, decided it was not profitable. They decided it was not profitable.

Anything is possible, I suppose. But there is a lot more evidence that a game as good as SH3/SH4 can only be created by a large publisher like Ubisoft. And with a weak SH5, if anyone was going to try to take that market over, now would be the time. I haven't heard anything at all that remotely sounds like this will happen. EA is making a major sub game, but it will be like Battlestations: Midway, and it's X-box all the way, baby.

Originally Posted by Wurschtie

I am quite certain that the major problem is the lack of business competition. I believe Ubisoft was able to get a bit lazy about SH, because players do not have any games to go to as an alternative.

From a marketing point of view, this leads to the conclusion that SH5 is not more than a second class cash cow, in a dying genre.

As a long time flight simulator enthusiast, I would even say that simulations themselves are a dying genre. Even Microsoft closed the aces studios, which were responsible for nearly every MSFS of the last two decades (which is not really the end of the world, because the MSFS series has a product life cycle of about 5-10 years). That is mainly because playing habits of the masses change from enthusiasts (as known from the early amiga and commodore days) to casual console gamers. In order to persist, it is crucial for a studio to have mega-selling titles like Assassin's Creed for the kiddie gaming generation, which likes to play GTA and stuff like that. Sims like SH5 are not an obligation, but more like an accessory and a question of image. And sure as hell Ubisoft is not coming out of this mess near zero, but with a big fat red minus at the end of the day. And this estimation does not even consider the negative effects on Ubisoft's image as a publisher in whole.

Silent Hunter was, unfortunately, one big fail. It was a communication fail in the first place. It is simply impossible to create a product which has such a high-involvement character as SH5 without asking or talking to the community. And chances are, that this will be the end of a whole genre, unless some studio (or even Ubisoft) is brave enough to do better (which is easy), or the community continues to maintain and mod the sh* out of this game and keep it alive, to prove that there still IS a market for sub sims. Without wanting to meet the trouble halfway, I am not really confident about the will of Ubisoft to keep trying to ride a dead horse.

IF (!) this game is dying in the arms of ubisoft, we can only hope that it will be given away at some point in time to a studio that dares to pay a license and continue the beloved stuff in the means of the community.

I agree 100% with your assessment. Our biggest hope remains that if Ubisoft refuses to support SH5 and fund SH6, that the serious sim guys in Bucharest can work out a deal with another publisher. Oleg, everyone's favorite messiah, someone... The next subsim will probably be Russian, like T-34 vs Tiger.